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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD)

VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old March 28th, 2008, 13:35   #1
EnthymematisHabilis
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Default Power loss, DTC 17656/P1248

Hi, I have a 2000 1.9L ALH TDI Jetta 5sp and I've been having intermittent power loss (particularly on long hills with cruise on, sometimes the power will "pulse" ie. power-no power-power-no power etc but usually just drops off) and the MIL has come on. I can sometimes maintain speed by pulsing the throttle. The DTC reads as P1248/ 17656 - "Injection Start Control Deviation". I've also noticed air bubbles in the fuel line between the fuel filter and the injection pump. If you can help with any suggestions as to what the problem might be or where to look for the problem that would be great.

So far, prior to determining the DTC pointing to the fuel system, I've replaced the MAF, checked/cleaned the intake and turbo (and inadvertently messed up the impeller balance, apparently, as the turbo shook itself into the housing and destroyed the compressor and bushings two days ago) and replaced the N75 solenoid. At least now I definitely know the turbo needs to be replaced, too. (By chance, anyone have a good VNT15 or VNT17 lying around?)

thanks, David
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Old March 28th, 2008, 14:45   #2
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Default Update: Injection Pump Head Unit

I got a reply from the folks at vwdieselparts.com and they suggest that my injection pump head unit might be the problem, based on the symptoms/DTC code.

"We suspect problems with the injection pump
head unit. Contact a VW Dealer or Bosch Repair
Center for their assistance."

Does this sound reasonable? What sort of things go wrong with an injection pump? How hard is it to replace the head unit (and is it reasonable to upgrade to an 11mm or 12mm plunger if I get it replaced)?

I've read the thread on how the VE injector pump is supposed to work:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=437307
and the dieselgeek instructions for changing the head seal:
http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Inject...eplacement.htm
but these haven't given me a good idea of how hard it would be to replace the head unit...

-David
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Old March 29th, 2008, 14:14   #3
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Injection start control is never good. It indicates that internally, the pump cannot correctly time the start of injection. If you want to condemn the pump last, then there are a couple of things to check:

-Make sure that the connector to the needle lift sensor on the #3 injector is tight, and that the wire appears to be in good shape. The injection pump determines when the start of injection actually happens by watching that injector, then adjusting the timing ring accordingly.

-Make sure that the bolts holding the pulley onto the injection pump are tight, and do no appear to have moved. This one is a long shot, but it's possible that the timing (when checked in relation to the crank) is jumping around a little, and the pump can't compensate fast enough.

Otherwise, I would say that the timing ring is sticking a little, and the only way to correct it without getting into the pump is to try running some Lube-Moly Diesel Purge through the pump (just pull the fuel supply and return lines off of the filter and put them in a jar of the diesel purge, then run it until the stuff is gone). I've had amazing results with that stuff, and the pump may just need a little TLC. If that doesn't work, then I'd say that an 11mm upgrade is in your future...

-Rich

Edit: The soleniod on the bottom of the pump controls the timing ring- I suppose that it's possible that the finger that engages the ring is worn, which could make the ring float around a little bit. That would also screw up the start of injection timing. How brave to you feel? You could take the solenoid out and have a look-see, but I don't recommend taking anything on the pump apart with it in the car. I'd rather have it on the bench to catch any parts that roll out (I had it happen on a 6.2l pump- won't do that again! Bench only for me.)
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Last edited by Nutsnbolts; March 29th, 2008 at 14:29.
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Old April 1st, 2008, 19:44   #4
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Default New Parts

Well, as my wife and I are stranded in New Mexico (at my in-laws, so we're not so bad off) I don't really want to spend too much time (though it looks like I'll be spending a bunch of ca$h) on messing with the injector pump. Planning to order a VNT-15 and 12mm injector pump from http://www.dieselvw.com/ along with injector nozzles as they seem to have really good prices. (anyone buy stuff from this site before? hoping the cheap prices don't mean cheap parts...!) Plus I think I'll invest in a VAG-COM...

So another question that occurs to me is: what size nozzles should I get? I'd like a moderate power gain while maintaining my fuel economy on normal driving. Are the .216's overkill, or will the .205's not match the 12mm pump very well? (I'm just installing a lift pump right now so fuel supply shouldn't be a problem...)

-David

thanks for the input NnB, the #3 injector seemed alright and I just had the timing belt changed, so I ruled those out. Didn't try the diesel purge since my turbo is wasted and I can't run it right now. Gonna try the "throw money at it" trick since I'm in a hurry and see if that works...
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 04:19   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnthymematisHabilis
Planning to order a VNT-15 and 12mm injector pump from http://www.dieselvw.com/ along with injector nozzles as they seem to have really good prices. ...
That website is another of eMiata's (he has probably 7-10 or so). Do a search here for the quality and fitment of his products before you make the purchase.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 08:01   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnthymematisHabilis
and I just had the timing belt changed, so I ruled those out. .
Curious. The car ran well before the timing belt change? Who did it? Did they use the proper tools? What is the timing set at? Timing was set with VAG-COM?

BTW, don't buy anything from that site. Cheap Chinese junk with little/no customer service with problems.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 10:28   #7
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I bought the Jetta last summer (July) at about 180,000km and I first noticed the power problem a few weeks after purchase. Unplugged MAF and problem went away (besides going limp mode), thusly I replaced the MAF (with the Pierburg MAF from tdiparts). It had some codes but I can't remember what they were. Seemed alright after that, I think it might have hesitated once before I had the timing belt changed (Oct-Nov?) at around 205-210,000km (bought the change kit from tdiparts, had a private VW mechanic my dad knew about do the work).

First noticed the power loss again on a cold Ottawa day (Dec) after filling up and heading south on the 416. I think some snow/ice/water might have got in the tank. The engine actually stalled once after I pulled off the highway. Figured, at the time, that the fuel was gelling.

In January we drove down to New Mexico (visiting inlaws, helping my father-in-law build a shop). Occasional power loss and MIL came on. ABS light came on too (narrowed that down to the front left ABS sensor). After the shop was up I decided to try and find the problem with the car but that's partly why the turbo went (I took it apart like a newB and messed up the balance, I'm pretty sure).

So, I'm not sure if the timing belt change is the culprit here. I just got a Bentley manual and I've just ordered a VAG-COM (should have done sooner) so hopefully I'll be able to check things out a little better when that arrives.

Any recommendations of a quality source where I can find a replacement turbo (VNT15 or GT1749VB) and/or injection pump (10mm, 11mm) for a good price?

-David

(this car is starting to remind me of my parents '79 type 2, it's a good thing it was a camper because almost every road trip we made we ended up sleeping on the side of the road with some random breakdown...)

-EDIT-
I got an email from Pete at dieselvw saying "I won't have more rebuilt injector pumps for 2 weeks. My pump rebuilder is on vacation"... fortunately the delay saved me from ordering questionable parts!

Last edited by EnthymematisHabilis; April 2nd, 2008 at 14:58.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 12:44   #8
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Default Vnt-17

Quick question... does anyone have a VNT-17 from rennenparts.com? http://www.rennenparts.com/index.php...roducts_id=617 the site doesn't say if this is the GT1749VB (OEM# 038-253-016-G)... at $878 ($50 core) I'm wondering if this is a good buy. (or, perchance, if anyone has a good VNT15 or GT1749VB with an equally good price)

-David
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 05:43   #9
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Check Kermatdi.com, TDIParts.com, and WorldImpex.com. I have nothing but good things to say about all 3 of those groups- never had a problem with anything I've ordered from them, and they all stand behind their products, and are willing to offer tech help if something goes awry. Great people.

-Rich
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Old April 5th, 2008, 19:20   #10
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Ordered a ST1849V Hammer from KermaTDi. Looking forward to getting that in the car.

I couldn't get a hold of any LM Diesel Purge locally but I got a bottle of PowerService injector cleaner and cetane boost (can't remember the exact title on the bottle). Any comments on whether that would be substantially different from LM-DP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIinRI
...[LM-Diesel Purge] contains 65% Diesel Fuel, approx. 25% Ethylhexyl nitrate [cetane booster?], approx. 8% Petroleum Distilate, and approx. 1% 1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene.
(from ARBY's DP How-To thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=87948&page=2)

Would this PowerService injector cleaner/cetane booster have similar contents, or would it be worthwhile paying shipping on the LMDP? Oh, while I'm asking questions... I saw that it was recommended to use VAG-COM while doing a DP treatment, what is it that one should be doing with the VAG-COM while running the DP through? (won't be doing this till later in the week, but want to be prepared when I do...)

thanks again,
David
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Old April 6th, 2008, 09:56   #11
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The LMDP is a different product, designed for more aggressive cleaning, whereas the PS product, while also excellent, is more for routine maintenence. IMHO, get the LMDP for the best results.

Also, what's an ST1849V?

-Rich
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Old April 6th, 2008, 18:35   #12
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Oh, hehehe... instead of GT for Garrett Turbo, I put ST for Street Toys (Turbo, maybe STT is better?), and 1849 for the wheel sizes (I think, well that's the number for this hybrid on kermaTDI), and V for Variable Geometry Turbo...

ST1849V isn't really any official designation but I thought it fit with the naming scheme...

You can see this turbo here: http://www.kermatdi.com/servlet/-str...1849%29/Detail

For the LMDP, any suggestions where I can buy it in SW New Mexico? (I'm not too keen on spending as much for shipping as the DP itself... though maybe there's some other stuff I can order from tdiparts...)

-David
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Old April 9th, 2008, 20:05   #13
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Well, I just got my VAG-COM and turbo yesterday. I have my new lift pump wired and seems to be working and today I got the replacement turbo installed. Next thing to see about the injection timing, we'll see how things go from here...

-David
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Old April 9th, 2008, 21:16   #14
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I also modded my intercooler housing by putting a drain/plug in the bottom, at what seemed like the lowest point. Having drained out oil from it twice in a month, it seemed like a good idea. (It also helped with getting the little bits of the compresser impeller out of the intercooler, makes it easier to flush out the intake system too!) I'll have to wait and see if my tapped hole and bolt hold up to the boost pressure though. (If not, there's always JBweld...)

-David
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Old April 10th, 2008, 13:12   #15
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Boy, when I first started it up and let it idle for the oil (just changed the oil, what was left of it, and the filter) to get pumping good throught the turbo, it ran really rough. Smoking too (don't tell any emissions folks about all the oil that got dumped in my exhaust/cat!). VAG-COM reported misfire on cylinder #1.

Next, I drained the fuel filter (it's still pretty new so I decided to keep using it) and filled it up with the PowerService diesel kleen I got. Unplugged the return line and the feed line from the filter and looped them together so the return fuel would feed back into the filter. Ran the engine with my VAG-COM hooked up and let it cycle the basic settings on block 4. This worked until a vacuum formed in the fuel filter and stopped fuel flow. Let open the T-fitting and released the vacuum, put a little more diesel kleen in and ran it some more... cleaned up the diesel that spilled out of ?the T-fitting I didn't plug back in or the filter?(not sure where it came out, but it wasn't too much)... Unplugged my loop and put the hoses back as normal.

Test drive! It seems to run smoothly on the short drive I took, turbo seems to work okay (no whine like the VNT15) and reasonably responsive. I think the diesel kleen helped and we'll see if the symptoms/codes come back when I take it for a longer drive this afternoon.

thanks all,
David
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