Where's Diesel?

[MethylEster]

I thought the biggest hurdle to bringing diesels into the good ole USA is that the existing diesel engine manufacturing plants are producing all they can and there is not much capacity left over to supply the US.

True or not ?????

[domboy]

Originally Posted by cptmox

Hypothetical situation:

Diesel autos never really take off in popularity here in the US. VW and M-B bring the goods as promised, but the diesel revolution never really takes off. No diesel Mini Cooper, no diesel Chevy Tahoe, no diesel Durango, and no diesel Hondas.

The uninformed American public stays that way, and the demand for diesels and diesel fuel doesn't skyrocket. How is that bad for us? How much worse could the price of diesel be, if there were 1 or 2 million more oil burning cars out there?

We are the choir. We are the loyal cult following that puts up with crummy dealer networks and low reliability scores. We deserve to be able to buy a TDI Sportswagen without a $5000 over MSRP premium that could result if the buying public really had a clue. I would almost prefer to continue things as they are. Most Americans can stay starry-eyed over hybrid SUVs; I like being smarter than everyone else.

On the other hand, the 2.0 diesel Subaru boxer in an AWD Legacy GT sounds really really sweet.

Yeah, but if the new diesels don't sell, what incentive will VW have to CONTINUE to bring them here in the future?? They'll have to switch to selling hybrids or whatever to gain market share (which they've stated as their goal), and we'd probably loose what few diesel cars we do have. Look at the US diesel market since 2006? Slim pickings. I think it's in all our best interests for the diesel market to gain share, not stay stagnant.

[Yelram]

This is a conspiracy, they want to force up the price of diesel to try to downplay the new diesels coming out, so it doesnt mess up their gas market.

[BeetleGo]

Conspiracy-consmearacy. There isn't any pact between auto makers and oil sellers.

~BeetleGo, steps off the yelling stage

[rcnaylor]

I think, emphasis think, that we'd have lots of diesels being sold in this country but for the extra complexity and costs associated with trying to get diesels that can comply with some of the ridiculous emmission standards a handful of states impose, like CA, which then bogs down the sales and the ups the cost for all.

Now, are those regs worthwhile and fair compared to the many equally if not more harmful substances gassers can emit in those same states? It seems to me that a certain clique of regulators living in the past regarding diesel emmissions are more of the hold up than either the buying public or the car manufacturers.

[TurbinePower]

Originally Posted by TDIPASSATGUY

We still have a 1980 Cutlass diesel. 80 HP???... In fact we converted the DIESEL block to a gasser with 350 pistons, crank, connecting rods, cam and heads from an engine with a cracked/ frozen block. The distributor goes in the hole that was a vacume pump when a diesel. Now 260 HP.

The other Olds diesel was pulled and substituted for a 425CID plant out of a 1968 Toranado. Every bracket and bolt fits....Exhaust manifolds, AC, PS. The gasser heads are taller and required clearancing the Evaporator housing. 405 HP. Sounds like a diesel still because of the original exhaust, but was a Corvette killer in the middle 80's.

I'd say there are a few similarities.

The problem with both of ours was head bolt stretch leading to head gasket failure. I'll bet ARP bolts would have saved GM a ton of money and reputation, as both of ours were re-gasketed at around 80K miles under the extended warranty they offered. The only problem was they re-eused the head bolts and the fix only lasted about 20K miles.

They would have done better converting the Iron Duke I4 to diesel and adding a turbo...

Sorry, this is like saying that every VW inline-4 is a conversion of the very first one, simply because they designed them all to fit in the same cars with the same brackets.

The 5.7 Olds was designed to go in the same places a Chevy 350 went. With that in mind, they'd be rather stupid to change all the bolt-hole locations. This is also a byproduct of sending both engine lines down through the same machining processes.

As for the headbolts, yeah, that was the root problem rather quickly fixed. The dealer screwup was reusing the head bolts (Which you could do! On a gasser... at least, during those days...). If they'd used the new and improved bolts that went with the extended warranty, you'd have probably gotten another 100k out of each engine.

As for longevity... there are "DX" 5.7L owners with upwards of 300k on their original diesel. The DX was the quickly-produced improvement that tightened tolerances, improved/upgraded the headbolts, made a small change in the block and head metallurgy, and was explicitly labelled that headbolt spec was replacement every time.

[TDICult]

Originally Posted by no-blue-screen

As far as public perception, that's a major problem....joe public sees big rigs and construction equipment with huge plumes of smoke billowing from it's exhaust stack and that is what pops into his mind when someone mentions diesel. I like the Honda commercial that was on youtube and aired in EU 'hate something, change something, make something betterrrrr' I think is the way it went.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXf5UUnLzwQ

^ now that is what we need to plaster all over TV and billboards here...

The main reason that Honda brought that advert out was because they were getting slain in the market n Europe. Everyone wanted a diesel when fuel is $8.00 a US gallon. Just look at the second hand cars you car buy to day in the UK. Select Fuel type to see the numbers.

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk.../search.action

Audi sells more TDI's as a ratio than VW. TDI is the must have for the middle classes. No one wants a gas guzzler.

VW
15,221 - Petrol
13,306 - Diesel
724 - Fuel unlisted
0 - hybrid

Audi
8645 - petrol
7944 - diesel
376 - Fuel unlisted
0 -Hybrid

Honda
9,521 - Petrol
1,795 - Diesel
75 - Hybrid
5 - Electric
319 - Fuel unlisted

Toyota
10.653- Petrol
3661 - Diesel
249 hybrid
696 fuel unlisted

[cptmox]

Originally Posted by kcfoxie

The mentality displayed in this post is why I want little to do with this "club."

Come on man, relax. I don't really feel that way. I suppose I should stop using the quick reply method, so I can use more to support my statements and get my meaning accross.

Of course I want an '09 Honda Accord CDi.
Of course I would like to have D2 or BD available at EVERY gas station.
Of course I want V-8 powered SUVs to fade away into history.
Of course I want Americans to use less oil in order to hopefully cool the pressure in the Middle East so my buddies and I won't have to go back.

[no-blue-screen]

Originally Posted by BeetleGo

No_Blue_Screen,

I believe you're misinformed. The number of auto makers that have 50 state ready diesels are numerous, but dragging their feet introducing them. The 45 state limit is no longer the case, at least for VW/Audi, BMW, Mercedes/Chrysler, Honda/Acura, Nissan, and Suburu. Korea is also in the group I think, as well as Citroen/Peogeot/Renault, but we don't get their products (yet).

As for truck belching out plumes of smoke, not since ULSD was introduce in '06.

~BeetleGo

How so? What I was saying is why up to this point we haven't seen a diesel explosion. It's been a niche market because prior to 2007, DPFs and ULSD, they couldn't meet the stiff emissions requirements of the CARB states.

They still belch out lots of smoke ....I see it on the highway everyday. Maybe not as much, but the average joe doesn't notice the difference or even know what ULSD is.

[no-blue-screen]

Originally Posted by TDICult

The main reason that Honda brought that advert out was because they were getting slain in the market n Europe. Everyone wanted a diesel when fuel is $8.00 a US gallon. Just look at the second hand cars you car buy to day in the UK. Select Fuel type to see the numbers.

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk.../search.action

Audi sells more TDI's as a ratio than VW. TDI is the must have for the middle classes. No one wants a gas guzzler.

VW
15,221 - Petrol
13,306 - Diesel
724 - Fuel unlisted
0 - hybrid

Audi
8645 - petrol
7944 - diesel
376 - Fuel unlisted
0 -Hybrid

Honda
9,521 - Petrol
1,795 - Diesel
75 - Hybrid
5 - Electric
319 - Fuel unlisted

Toyota
10.653- Petrol
3661 - Diesel
249 hybrid
696 fuel unlisted

Yeah, but they need to do something similar here to change the public perception of diesel powered vehciles in the US.

[DesertDave]

What about diesel fuel prices? Here where I live (northern New Mexico) diesel is up to $4.09/gal while regular unleaded is still at $3.11/gal. At that price difference I can drive a 31 mpg gas car and break even pricewise. Cut over to a higher milage gas-hybrid and I'm far better off econmically driving that instead of a high mileage diesel.

Of course I'm really, really holding out for the VW diesel-hybrid now.

[frugality]

Originally Posted by DesertDave

At that price difference I can drive a 31 mpg gas car and break even pricewise.

Yes, but the $64,000 question is: after having a TDI, would you want to drive a 31mpg gas car?

(perish the thought)

[djbobo]

I think that the auto makers should focus selling to the non-CARB states.
The 45 state emissions are more in line with the ones allready on the road in Europe. It would only be a slight modification to greatly expand there markets with there existing cars.
This way the car companies save a ton of money in r&d and we can have a much greater choice of (less complicated) diesel vehicles.

[roytoy]

That Honda Civic i-CTDi is the sexiest car I have seen in my entire life!

Almost makes me want to move to France with the rest of my family, but then again, they almost never have to drive anyway... so what is the case?

I think that many people in this forum suffer from the "Hybrid Syndrome" perfectly outlined in one South Park episode where everyone thought their farts don’t smell.


I don’t see where everyone comes saying that TDIs were sitting for months in the dealer… for the love of Pete! tell me where because as soon as they arrived to any Texas dealer, they were gone.



I’ve had seen one of those “ubber cool” Fahrenheit Golf sitting under the sun for months, not the same scenario for any TDI. (no I don’t think the Fahrenheit is cool, I think is the German version of a clown car, I was just saying).


Many drive Hybrids and TDI as a “statement” of how smart they think they are for saving at the pump. What many don’t realize, is that some don’t drive the SUV just for compensation for said bodily features or lack there off. But for the enormous Tax advantages they received, and because it used to fit their lifestyle and wallets.


Lifestyles will adjust to follow the wallet capacity, believe me, the death of the Tahoe is near.


Hybrids, on the same note, were not hugely popular solely because DiCaprio drives one, but also because they offered a tax advantage, and some others thought they were being cool and saving mother earth… Not knowing they would do much more for her by stop eating so damn much beef.


Please, give the general public a little more credit (although after so many people voting for W twice… I am not so sure about my own comments here).


It is as simple as this; If the car manufacturer brings Diesels with an adequate marketing campaign… they won’t be able to keep them in the lots. Produce an add campaign with the simple math that even at $4.50 per gallon, with 40+ miles per unit, you are still in the flip side of a similarly priced Gasser with the added advantage of torque, technology, endurance, and longer interval between maintenance.


And don’t think car companies don’t know this… What I wonder is what they know that we don’t. Like, why is the Diesel so expensive in USA and where

will it ultimately level out in the next 2, 3 years.



Believe guys, they have math wizards that crunch numbers in super computers running models in all kinds of scenarios.

[Blonde Guy]

Originally Posted by rcnaylor

I think, emphasis think, that we'd have lots of diesels being sold in this country but for the extra complexity and costs associated with trying to get diesels that can comply with some of the ridiculous emmission standards a handful of states impose, like CA, which then bogs down the sales and the ups the cost for all.

But Texas and California have the same rules in this case, as do the other 48 states. VW should have anticipated the change, and produced a compliant engine in 2006, when the new ultra low sulfer diesel fuel came out. They would have sold a lot of cars, and that would have brought the price down.