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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old January 18th, 2008, 07:36   #1
Mikkijayne
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Default How do you make a TDI rev faster?

Hi All,

I have read numerous threads on here and elsewhere talking about tuning diesels to make power past the usual ~4500 rpm - some as much as 6000. My problem is that I can't find any info anywhere on how to actually do this. Is it mechanical? Is it fuel quantity or timing? Is it electronic?

Can anyone put this in black and white for me please? For reference I'm particularly interested in the 1Z / AHU TDI engines.

Thanks, Mikki x
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Old January 18th, 2008, 07:51   #2
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In 4th gear what does your motor rev up too now ,and at what rpm's does it stop pulling and making power.....and where have you heard that a tdi can rev up to 6000rpm.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:04   #3
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It runs out of power at about 4000, and will go to about 4500, although I haven't run it in to the limiter. I do have a lift pump but its not hooked up yet, since I don't believe it will make any difference on a stock engine?

I've seen threads on VWDiesel.net talking about 'Giles pumps' going to 6000 on mTDI engines, and I'm sure I've read things on here about going to 5000+. I always thought that the rev limit was determined by the burn rate of the fuel, hence why I'm curious.

Btw Mojogoes - do you have a build thread? I'd love to know how you make 249hp in a mk3
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:10   #4
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Revs are limited by the time it takes inject, mix, ignition delay, flash....
the actual burning of the fuel occurs as fast as a gasoline engine. Bottom line is that it's the process of delivering the fuel at the correct interval that takes the time.

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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:12   #5
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Quote....Mikkijayne
Btw Mojogoes - do you have a build thread? I'd love to know how you make 249hp in a mk3

ShuuuuuuuuuuSh its all B/S but don't tell anyone .

There the IDI motors and not tdi's what mods have you done plus i take it that this tdi engine in the Corrado.

P.s how long did it take you to do the conversion.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:21   #6
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A good turbo and tune will get usable power till 5000, 5200 max, for any more you needs loads of work and $$$$$$$$

Mine gets decent power till 5200
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:23   #7
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Ah so the IDIs can rev faster than the TDI? Why's that?

The engine in the Corrado at the moment is a stock 1Z with worn out rings and terrible blow-by, so I haven't modified it at all. I'm planning to build an AHU to replace it, and I'm gathering info as I go along so that I can build it as best as I can first time round. I'd like at least 200whp, but that will probably depend on what turbo I can find at a sensible price.

The conversion took me two weeks in the winter. If I did it in the summer I could have done it in a few days, but because it got dark so early it took longer than planned.

Mikki x
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:28   #8
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How long have you had that engine inn......don't get hung up on the fact that an idi will rev higher which is of a petrol mind.......tdi's will produce more power and torque.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:47   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkijayne
Ah so the IDIs can rev faster than the TDI? Why is that?
It is said that the IDIs (such as VW 1.9L TD or 1.6L TD) combust faster and more completely than TDIs at high RPM, even with less air consumed and more fuel consumed... at the same smoke level!

There's a bit more technical info here.

The ability to burn fuel completely at high RPM is very important for efficient HP without needing transmission-shattering torque or useless FWD wheelspin (admittedly they look cool, but it doesn't make a car go faster). Ultimately consistent HP wins races - can't argue with the reality of 200ft-lb Hondas running 11's on the 1/4 mile track. However torque's more fun to drive, and is usually more practical in daily driving i.e. highway passes etc.

Here's a graph of my VW 1.6L IDI motor with a 1.9L head.. HP peaked at 5,250 RPM before dropping off due to what felt like a fuel cut-off.



It had a stock cam, stock fuel injectors with no smoke, Giles 9mm pump, a custom GT20 turbo (instant 15 PSI boost at idle - probably comparible to a VNT-17/22), and insufficient intercooling. Giles was going to sponsor a 11mm or 12mm 6,000 RPM pump for this project but the car went off the road.

The engine was in a 1997 Golf and it matched or exceeded the performance of a VR6 of the same vehicle weight, and it was only a 1.6L producing 0% WOT smoke.

There is another similar IDI that went on the road a few weeks ago with more headwork and a large turbo. It was still pulling at 6,000 RPM in 5th gear. 2nd gear was shattered on the 1st test drive. It's running my old 9mm pump although a 6,000 RPM 14mm pump is in the works. It will be very interesting...

FWIW I think my GT20 was one of my restrictions at 5250 RPM - like a VNT-17 or any VNT-17 hybrid it's far too small and EGTs were very high. For good HP a bigger turbo is necessary.

The 1.6L's short 86.5mm (?) stroke and lighter reciprocating parts may have contributed to better revs, along with IDI's theoretical better combustion at high RPM.

The video of a mercedes peeling around, posted here a while back, is an IDI. IIRC it since got a supercharger (now twin-charged) and is smoke free at low RPM. The DIs however still produce impressive power. Is a fully worked DI ultimately better than a comparible fully worked IDI or vice versa? Who knows.. one thing though is that IDIs are already a dying breed (it's been 11 years since TDIs arrived in NA) and DIs are more readily available. The DI market has more $ for businesses and hobbyists to continue R&D in power enhancements. Both the DI and underrated IDI get the same level of support from me!
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Old January 18th, 2008, 10:48   #10
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Mikki: I read in another post that you wanted over 200bhp and 350ft-lbs. This is no problem in a 1.9L TDI with a 5,000 RPM limit.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 11:18   #11
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Ohhh I like fairy tails.....especially if its a high rpm question on old type tdi engines......

Here is some details to PD engines

1: Electromagnetic injectors has not be under control over 5000rpm - due the high internia load of magnetic disk (duty cycle)
2: Combustion process at this rpm has to be very disharmonic with high portion of exhaust pollutants
3: Injection timing over 5000rpm has to be a serious issue
4: Target rpm for certain engines depend on resonated intake/exhaust tract so if the engine will be designed for high rpm will be ok but OEM
5: Camshaft design is also a key factor to run at high rpm

If someone want to twist tdi like a turbo powered Subaru, Mitsubishi - please stay at gasoline.......piezzo type injectors is a key.....
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Old January 18th, 2008, 11:49   #12
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Thanks again for the replies

I'm not looking for for mad rpms - I'm just curious as to how it's done since I couldn't find the info anywhere, and if its an IDI thing then fair enough.

If a TDI will make power to 5000 ish with a good tune then I'll be happy with that, after all its another 1000 from what I have at the moment! I'm trying to make my car go the same as a chipped Ibiza Fr (PD130 now making 180) and I think 200whp should do that just fine!

Mojogoes - the engine has been in for a couple of months now, and done about 5000 miles in the Corrado. Its about to get mothballed though because of the incessant oil leak and a neverending stream of other Corrado type problems I'll build up the AHU and then put it back in to service...
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Old January 18th, 2008, 12:16   #13
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My question is why you would want to make this engine revv faster? These engines live on their torque not their revvs. An old 16v gasser is what you want if revvs are desired.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 12:35   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkijayne
Thanks again for the replies

I'm not looking for for mad rpms - I'm just curious as to how it's done since I couldn't find the info anywhere, and if its an IDI thing then fair enough.

If a TDI will make power to 5000 ish with a good tune then I'll be happy with that, after all its another 1000 from what I have at the moment! I'm trying to make my car go the same as a chipped Ibiza Fr (PD130 now making 180) and I think 200whp should do that just fine!

Mojogoes - the engine has been in for a couple of months now, and done about 5000 miles in the Corrado. Its about to get mothballed though because of the incessant oil leak and a neverending stream of other Corrado type problems I'll build up the AHU and then put it back in to service...

Ok i got ya now.......so why not fit a pd150hp from the off or better still a 140hp pd 16v tdi motor for that matter.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 12:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojogoes
Ok i got ya now.......so why not fit a pd150hp from the off or better still a 140hp pd 16v tdi motor for that matter.
You coming from Devon and all.....do you be any chance know DevonMikeyboy( MIKE) with the a4 16v pd ............OOOOPS
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