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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old April 4th, 2000, 15:16   #1
Strack
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Consumer reports did a comparison test using PTFE, they do not reccomend using it..
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Old April 4th, 2000, 15:56   #2
ThinkDiesel
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Straight Delvac 1 5w-40 and nothin' else baby.
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Old April 4th, 2000, 16:03   #3
Dominique Cormann
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

I agree with you all that PTFE products don't belong in your engine ( unless used to cost piston/cylinder walls or oil seals and such...but this is different ).

Apart from the consumer reports article, the FTC court cases, and some articles I have seen with pictures of what happens to PTFE when it reachs the operating temp in an engine, I was wondering if anything new had come up. People ask me from time to time what I think of PTFE products, and I explain what I already know. Wondering if their is any new info.

Does the FTC ever pull a product from the market? The FTC hasn't gone after PTFE based products exactly. They have gone after individual oil additive companies for the unrealistic claims they make. Then after winning the court case they make the company not say those claims anymore. But they are still allowed to sell the product. Slick50 is a good example. Its still on the shelf, they just don't have the kind of commercials they used to.

This is how I believe tufoil can get away with saying that their competitors are involved with the FTC but they are not. This in a way conveys that they are different from their competitors. They aren't. They just advirtise in a way that doesn't attract the attention of the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/9707/slick.htm

Its an interesting read.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by Dominique Cormann (edited April 04, 2000).]
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Old April 4th, 2000, 16:29   #4
Rocket18k
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

I am glad someone brought Tufoil up. It is the single greatest product on the market for your car. I have been using Tufoil since 1981 or so when Popular Mechanics used it in a test car and wrote and article on how well it did for them. I have logged over 1,000,000 miles on Tufoil and it has saved my butt more than once, including my oil draining out when the oil change place didnt tighten the drain plug. My engines last forever and when they crashed because of a timing belt failure I have cracked my motors with my mechanic and the two of us marvel how the engine looks new inside (such as zero wear on the main bearing....) except for the damage done by throwing the timing belt.

Tufoil doesnt clog up like other teflon additives because its uniform negitive charge and super small particle size (colloidal state). Tufoil is also listed in Guiness book as the slipperiest substance known to man.

I am giving this strong endorsement for them because I believe in this product that strongly.

------------------
2000 NB TDI
1999 Dodge 2500 cummins
1981 MB 240d
1985 Toyota Corolla diesel
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Old April 4th, 2000, 19:25   #5
Dominique Cormann
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

http://www.qualityimports.co.nz/tufoil/tufoil_info.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
5. 4 BALL WEAR TEST ASTM D4172 40KG, 1200 RPM, 167F, 1 HOUR
(1 PART TUFOIL 20 PARTS 10W40 MOTOR OIL)
Results. Average Wear Scar Diameter. mm = 0.43<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an example of what I've noticed tufoil does. They take industry
standard tests and use them in ways that are not correct, but the
changes they make, make their product look better then it is.

They run the 4 ball test at a lower RPM and lower temp then what oil companies do. Thus inflating the numbers.

Amsoil is more honest in this way and when they do this test at 150 C not 75
C, and run it at a 1800 rpm, they achieve wear scars between 0.30mm
(20w50 series 2000) to 0.39mm (most of the other oils they make achieve
this number). So under WORSE conditions, it ends up producing a smaller
wear scar. 150C is a more relevant temp to run the test at since this is the temp that the oil will see between the bearings when the rest of the oil is at normal operating temps ( around 90-100c )

The trend I noticed was that they run all the tests in non standard
ways, and at LOWER temps. Temps not seen in an operating engine. I
honestly believe this is because of what I mentioned about what happens
to PTFE when you use it at temps above 100C.

The wear scar they achieve could be achieved with any normal mineral
oil at that temp and rpm. The trick it to achieve a wear scar of that
number or less once you've raised the temp and rpm.

Another issue is that when you factor in the price of the Tufoil, you could have purchased a good synthetic oil in the first place.
http://www.tufoil.com/coupon2.htm

$39.95 us per quart!

Your supposed to use 8 oz for the first oil change, and 4 oz for each oil change after that. They recommend normal 3000 mile oil changes. That makes this product more expensive to use then synthetics oils which would give you better protection. Duh.

------------------
My Project GTD and diesel page http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject


[This message has been edited by Dominique Cormann (edited April 04, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dominique Cormann (edited April 04, 2000).]
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Old April 4th, 2000, 19:30   #6
msparks
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Well since we are on the subject of snake oil::
Ran across this stuff the other day: http://gozmax.com/history.html

Anyone know anything about this stuff, they even have some stuff that is FAA approved: http://www.avblend.com/AVBWeb/index.html

This stuff is a micro lubricant that "soaks" into metal and makes it wet. lol


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Old April 4th, 2000, 20:47   #7
Ted
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Dominique,

The test parameters Tufoil uses ARE the standard test conditions (parameter #1) for the ASTM 4172-B, four ball wear test. Amsoil specifically uses the more stringent parameter #2 & #3 conditions to demonstrate differences in wear protection under high temp/high load conditions. The test used for their 20w-50 racing oil duplicates conditions (302F and 60kg load) that you'd almost never see in street use ....This causes a failure in the oil film for most petroleum and synthetic oils, hence the very large wear scars.

Ted
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Old April 4th, 2000, 22:22   #8
Oil Man
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Rocket18K,
I believe you ment to say that Teflon is in the guiness book of world records as the sliperiest substance known to man, not Tufoil.

By the way Teflon might be slipery but not at the temps incountered in our engines.
These are some of the Max temps and load carrying capacity, psi2 for 4 chemicals on the market.
Almasol
1900 deg F
400,000 psi

Molydbenum disulfide
650 deg F
400,000 psi

Graphite
800 deg F
80,000 psi

Teflon (PTFE)
500 deg F
5,000 psi

As you can see if you were to add the Teflon to your oil you would be diluting the quality of most regular oils and that does not even come close to good petro oils or synthetics.

My 2 cents worth, Kevin
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Old April 5th, 2000, 00:19   #9
Dominique Cormann
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Default Tufoil oil additive

I'm not endorsing this product, but I'd like to discuss it here as other oil additives have been discussed.
http://www.qualityimports.co.nz/tufo...gines_info.htm

One of the biggest pieces of proof they use on the page is the results of ASTM four ball test. They don't give you all the variables for the test though, only the weight they used. They used a non-standard weight to confuse things even more. They do give a temp with each oil additive, but its unclear if its the temp of the small amount of oil additive being tested or the temp of the metal balls...or something else. Either way, its not the kind of temps that this test is usually done at.

According to Tufoil, the product is a Molybdenum and PTFE based product. We know that Moly is an effective additive, and we know that PTFE is effective when used as it was designed.

PTFE is used to coat pistons, cylinder walls in high performance engines and is done by hand. Oils seals and fuel lines and other hoses have recently been availible with PTFE coatings, since teflon is a great coating for antifriction and chemical protection.

I've seen pictures of teflon added to oil and seen how the PTFE just turns to a gel once the engine reachs operating temps.

Has anyone dug up anymore information on these products?

------------------
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http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca/gtdproject


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Old April 5th, 2000, 00:30   #10
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Run a CH-4 rated syntheic oil of the correct viscosity. Don't add anthing to it!

Careful, or you'll have newbies going out and dumping Slick 50 or some other snake oil in their new TDIs.
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Old April 5th, 2000, 00:41   #11
TwoSlick
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Dominique,

I checked out the Tufoil chart and the thing that stood out (in my twisted mind), is that it only took 5 1/2 minutes for the "SLICKWILLIE" additive to start smoking. It would be insightful to get independant conformation from Monica on this - we are, after all scientists!
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Old April 5th, 2000, 00:53   #12
valois
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Tufoil makes a great GP lubricant for hinges,guns etc... I wouldn't put any PFTE in my engine. It will clog small passages, the Feds cracked down on these products several years ago.
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Old April 5th, 2000, 15:25   #13
TwoSlick
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

There is definitely a place for Moly, correctly used. Mobil in fact uses about 200 ppm of moly in their 15w-50 synthetic racing oil. The key is being able to correctly add it to the basestock so it remains soluble.

As far as I'm concerned PTFE has no place in engine oils of any type, although as a solid film additive to greases, it may provide some benefit. Dupont Corp, who holds the patent on teflon, agrees with me on this and has stated so publically. They have come out strongly against using teflon in any form as an oil additive, in order to distance themselves from any of these lawsuits ....
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Old April 5th, 2000, 18:19   #14
valois
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Just a point to ponder, burning teflon releases cyanide gas.
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Old April 5th, 2000, 23:35   #15
KO
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Default Re: Tufoil oil additive

Delvac-1, life be in it!
I am just really sold on the Mobil Delvac-1 for my TDI. This oil, I believe, is a factor in my car constantly getting over 52mpg, highway city combined. And it runs so smooth and quiet.
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