tjl
Top Post Dawg
How much difference is there between the API CH-4 rating and the ACEA B3 and B4 ratings (and what about ACEA B5?)?
API CH-4 vs ACEA B3 and B4 ratings
- Thread starter tjl
- Start date
brian
Veteran Member
The A5/B5 standard is for x30 weight oils with lower HTHS than a x40 weight oil can provide. In this way, A5/B5 is for newer engines designed for thinner oils and it does not supercede A4/B4. A4/B4 specs for HTHS, etc are met with x40 weight oils. A4/B4 was recently updated from A4/B4-98 to A4/B4-02. I've heard that while Europe has better diesel, the U.S. has far better lubrication products. Its better to run CH-4 than A4/B4.
Brian
Edited to remove comparison of A4/B4 to CH-4. I was not comparing to all Euro specs, just the ones listed, but in any case, its removed.
[ May 03, 2002, 09:56: Message edited by: brian ]
Brian
Edited to remove comparison of A4/B4 to CH-4. I was not comparing to all Euro specs, just the ones listed, but in any case, its removed.
[ May 03, 2002, 09:56: Message edited by: brian ]
cars wanted
Veteran Member
"but the A4/B4 is the closest European spec to CH-4."
I'm not sure about that. I don't have the oil specifications at hand, but Europeans have E4 and various other E-something motor oil specifications for heavy-duty truck diesel engines. I suppose that those specifications would more nearly match API's CH-4 specification.
ACEA A-something oils are for gas-engined cars,
ACEA B-something oils are for diesel-engined cars, and
ACEA E-something oils are for heavy-duty diesel-engined trucks.
Many oils are certified to meet several of these specifications.
I'm not sure about that. I don't have the oil specifications at hand, but Europeans have E4 and various other E-something motor oil specifications for heavy-duty truck diesel engines. I suppose that those specifications would more nearly match API's CH-4 specification.
ACEA A-something oils are for gas-engined cars,
ACEA B-something oils are for diesel-engined cars, and
ACEA E-something oils are for heavy-duty diesel-engined trucks.
Many oils are certified to meet several of these specifications.
Eric Maurier
Veteran Member
You'll find all the documentation you need here:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/EngineOils/6-OilClasses/default.htm
enjoy!
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/EngineOils/6-OilClasses/default.htm
enjoy!
Eric Maurier
Veteran Member
Not willing to sound pro european here, but if we compare B3/B4 with CH-4:
only 3 tests match: foaming, shear stability and evaporative losses.
For foaming, CH is more stringent than B3/B4. But are we having problems with foam in our TDIs?
Shear stability: both must stay in grade (SIG)
But for the noack volatility, CH allows 18 or 20 percent whereas B3/B4 is 13. And volatility is what fills your intercooler with oil and clogs up your manifold (togoether with EGR).
You'll notice as well that B3/B4 has a test for the piston cleanliness on OUR engine and not on a big rig. More globally, the B-class requirements are closer to the needs of a TDI. High speed, high boost, high specific power.
E4/E5 vs CH4:
On the mack T8E, the visc. with soot requirements are the same.
Mack T9: same requirements for liner wear, but E5 is quite a lot more stringent for rings wear and lead increase.
Same requirements on the Cummins M11.
Shear stability: idem
Foaming: idem
Noack: as for the B3/B4, the E requires less than 13% vs 18-20% for CH4.
Now you have the choice, given the (very) limited comparisons we can do.
But I don't even bother looking for API certifications on the cans. If it's got ACEA B3+B4 it's OK, if it's got a VW 505.00 it's better (though a 505.00 rated oil without the ACEA B3/B4 is crap to me), MB 229.1 makes it good, if it has 229.3 I buy it.
MB 229.3 has quite stringent requirements for the cylinder wear as far as I remember.
only 3 tests match: foaming, shear stability and evaporative losses.
For foaming, CH is more stringent than B3/B4. But are we having problems with foam in our TDIs?
Shear stability: both must stay in grade (SIG)
But for the noack volatility, CH allows 18 or 20 percent whereas B3/B4 is 13. And volatility is what fills your intercooler with oil and clogs up your manifold (togoether with EGR).
You'll notice as well that B3/B4 has a test for the piston cleanliness on OUR engine and not on a big rig. More globally, the B-class requirements are closer to the needs of a TDI. High speed, high boost, high specific power.
E4/E5 vs CH4:
On the mack T8E, the visc. with soot requirements are the same.
Mack T9: same requirements for liner wear, but E5 is quite a lot more stringent for rings wear and lead increase.
Same requirements on the Cummins M11.
Shear stability: idem
Foaming: idem
Noack: as for the B3/B4, the E requires less than 13% vs 18-20% for CH4.
Now you have the choice, given the (very) limited comparisons we can do.
But I don't even bother looking for API certifications on the cans. If it's got ACEA B3+B4 it's OK, if it's got a VW 505.00 it's better (though a 505.00 rated oil without the ACEA B3/B4 is crap to me), MB 229.1 makes it good, if it has 229.3 I buy it.
MB 229.3 has quite stringent requirements for the cylinder wear as far as I remember.
Now you have the choice, given the (very) limited comparisons we can do.
But I don't even bother looking for API certifications on the cans. If it's got ACEA B3+B4 it's OK, if it's got a VW 505.00 it's better (though a 505.00 rated oil without the ACEA B3/B4 is crap to me), MB 229.1 makes it good, if it has 229.3 I buy it.
MB 229.3 has quite stringent requirements for the cylinder wear as far as I remember.
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Interesting Eric- I agree, but disagree. Note, MB 229.1 is not for extended drain intervals in mercedes passenger cars. So, with these oils they recommend changing every 5k miles. Mobil-1 meets 229.1 for all grades, yet only 15W50 and 0W40 meet the requirements for 229.3. It is correct to say 229.3 would be adequate for tdi's extended drain intervals of 10k
Does seem to me like Europe is getting better lubricants. Most of our type II base oils all say "EF= european formula". I think that's what penzoil and others are saying lately.
michael
But I don't even bother looking for API certifications on the cans. If it's got ACEA B3+B4 it's OK, if it's got a VW 505.00 it's better (though a 505.00 rated oil without the ACEA B3/B4 is crap to me), MB 229.1 makes it good, if it has 229.3 I buy it.
MB 229.3 has quite stringent requirements for the cylinder wear as far as I remember.
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Interesting Eric- I agree, but disagree. Note, MB 229.1 is not for extended drain intervals in mercedes passenger cars. So, with these oils they recommend changing every 5k miles. Mobil-1 meets 229.1 for all grades, yet only 15W50 and 0W40 meet the requirements for 229.3. It is correct to say 229.3 would be adequate for tdi's extended drain intervals of 10k
Does seem to me like Europe is getting better lubricants. Most of our type II base oils all say "EF= european formula". I think that's what penzoil and others are saying lately.
michael
Eric Maurier
Veteran Member
Yes, I meant that 229.1 IN ADDITION with B3/B4 was good because it adds piston cleanliness, cam wear and sludge to the ACEA tests. But 229.3 is far better, look:
</font><ul type="square">[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TEST--------------//--229.1---//--229.3</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Chlorine, ppm--------100 max-------100 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">111E Sludge----------RL140 +2------RL140 +2/+3</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">111E Cam wear--------5µm max-------3 µm max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">602A:</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Piston clean.--------20 min--------24 min</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bore polish.---------7% max--------4.5% max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cyl wear µm----------20 max--------15 max </font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cam wear µm----------50 max--------45 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oil cons. kg---------10 max--------10 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Visc. increase %-----90 max--------70 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Engine sludge--------8.8 min-------8.9 min
</font>[/list]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you check the ACEA B3/B4 limits regarding the MO602A, you'll see that they roughly match 229.1 . That's why I seek oils that are 229.3 and B3/B4 compliant.
In conclusion, I think we agree
</font><ul type="square">[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TEST--------------//--229.1---//--229.3</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Chlorine, ppm--------100 max-------100 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">111E Sludge----------RL140 +2------RL140 +2/+3</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">111E Cam wear--------5µm max-------3 µm max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">602A:</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Piston clean.--------20 min--------24 min</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bore polish.---------7% max--------4.5% max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cyl wear µm----------20 max--------15 max </font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cam wear µm----------50 max--------45 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oil cons. kg---------10 max--------10 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Visc. increase %-----90 max--------70 max</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Engine sludge--------8.8 min-------8.9 min
</font>[/list]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you check the ACEA B3/B4 limits regarding the MO602A, you'll see that they roughly match 229.1 . That's why I seek oils that are 229.3 and B3/B4 compliant.
In conclusion, I think we agree