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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old September 17th, 2006, 18:41   #1
Kier
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Default 506.01 0W-30 vs Other 5W-40 PD Oils

2004 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon (BEW Engine): 55K miles
I have been using ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 oil for the past three 10K oil changes with excellent results. I have consistantly been getting around 700 miles per tank with a recent record of 714 miles. Does decent fuel economy relate to less wear and tear on the engine? I recently have been viewing posts by others stating that they would never trust a 0W-30 vs a 5W-40. Others have statistically measured the additional costs for the 506.01 vs the 505.01 offerings. Since I perform approx 2 oil changes per year, I don't mind spending the extra 5-6 dollars per liter. I am not an expert with lubricants, but I have compared the attributes of 506.01 to 505.01 and clearly see the benefits of 506.01. Can the oil experts chime in and comment on the 0W-30 506.01 vs 5W-40 505.01 recommendations. Are the 5W-40 supporters old school? With the technology changing so rapidly, are the 0W-30 506.01 choices excelling with equal or better overall engine protection? My primary goal is to protect my engine and keep the car many years. I recall one thread stating that the 0W-30 506.01 is the primary oil used throughout Europe in PD's.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 20:22   #2
DrewD
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I switched to 506.01 last month. Jury is still out as to whether I will use it for remainder of engine life. I will pull a sample after I run 10k on it and see wear rates. If rates are low, I'll probably continue with it.

I was getting upper 40's but am back down to a steady 45mpg. I wonder if intro of ULSD is reason why fuel economy suffered.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 20:49   #3
wjdell
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I think ULSD is going to give a bigger hit than I antcipated. 8 to 9% is the difference I show. For me its difficult to be sure, my first 22 gals was LSD and I averaged 44. I purchased 250 ULSD and within 20 gallons I was below 40. The best I have done is 41 and I never exceeded 55 mph, shut the air off when I could. I think the additives in low friction oil may make up that difference. I hope to achieve 44 again one day.
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~ USED OIL ANALYSIS ~ http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=190958
~
1.9 PD Jetta V ~ pkg 1 ~
DSG ~ 17" VV ~ 36/34 psi ~
ULSD ~ DG-BP90 - speed 39.2
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Old September 17th, 2006, 21:20   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kier
1. Can the oil experts chime in and comment on the 0W-30 506.01 vs 5W-40 505.01 recommendations.

2. Are the 5W-40 supporters old school?

3. With the technology changing so rapidly, are the 0W-30 506.01 choices excelling with equal or better overall engine protection?
1. Are there really any "oil experts" here? What you want is a diesel engineer with a oil background, more specifically a TDI diesel engineer. I doubt we can find one in the US or Canada. I think there are a couple guys here who may come close, but not "expert".

2. Old school? I call old school the guys who have not accepted synthetic oil technology. But then some guys have had 5w40 drilled into their heads for such a long time are just taking a wait and see what happens thing. Some have not even come over to 505.00 yet in pre PD engines.

3. I think this is the one thing that scares most people about the 506.01. Is it a fuel saving motor oil or does it offer equal or better overall engine protection? I believe it offers both qualities. To quote Elf, "Designed specifically to ensure maximum protection during extended oil-change intervals". Guess it depends on who's defining "maximum protection".

As to technology changing rapidly, 506.01 has been available for quite a while in Europe. But VWofA does not seem to know about it yet. Sometimes I wonder if they even know about 505.01. I think the oil companies in Europe are way ahead of their counterparts here in North America. They have been leading the way in lubrication technology, but the North American Auto Manufacturers are not asking the same of the oil companies here. Many drivers in the US still think they are suspose to change their oil every 3000 miles.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 21:58   #5
Logismoi
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It seems that the folks who live in Maine with PD's have it made

cf. http://www.elfmoto.us/elfauto/autodealers.php w/

Elf 0w-30
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Old September 17th, 2006, 22:03   #6
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I'll respond the best way I know how..........by quoting people who know what they're talking about.

This was Pete's response when I asked whether he was ready to sign off on the 0w-30 506.01 spec:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire
Yes, 506.01 and the newer 504.00 and 507.00 oils should be fine in all the VW's in terms of CAM wear. How the oils hold up in terms of soot loading when compared to CI-4 + CI-4+ oils remains to be seen. One thing can be said that with high sulfur fuels and the thinner 506.01 type oils that higher soot loading during long drain oil changes can in some cases lead to high wear rates, at what point that threshold occurs remains to be seen. CI-4+ had to demonstrate it's ability to prevent engine wear with soot loading of 8% THAT is a LOT of soot BUT realistic when considering the oils are formulated for long drains on 500ppm crap fuel found at the cheapest of truckstops in po dunk USA. Truckers will always search out the lowest cost fuel and truck stations in order to attract them provide the highest cholesteral country fried...err cheapest product they can source often meaning higher in sulfur content as the method of reducing the total cost at the refinery. Low sulfur ie 300ppm or 200ppm are rare. and it even more rare to see a truck lined up at an Amoco stations Premier pump! Now, unless you are in the land of fruits and nuts 50ppm is the only option by virtue of regulation and lets face it the trucking industry is NOT very happy with how fuel prices are going there right now.

The nitty gritty of it, Sulfur is a critical aspect in your consideration when choosing an oil. Grant it the PD owners are EXTREMELY limited in their choices IF I repeat IF they want to retain the VW warranty on the engine referring to the PD rollers and cams. There is a faction of us who would prefer a CI-4 or CI-4+ oil in the PD and are willing to accept the risk, however using these oils may in fact provide BETTER protection on US fuels in the course of long drains. The fact is VW never certified D1 or M1 T&S to 505.01 standards so we have to leave it at that.

Those who decide to run the 506.01 oils MUST establish iron wear trends so they know how well the 506.01 oils are doing in regards to Iron wear and TBN. My prediction is that when a 506.01 crosses it's limit to protect the iron wear rates from the cam and rollers cams will spike, perhaps to the point that the iron itself WILL NOT SHOW UP IN THE ANALYSIS! The reason is simple certain types of wear as in that made of iron which are elevated, WILL NOT SHOW UP IN SPECTROANALYSIS because Spectroanalysis is only accurate in the size of particle less than 3 microns (if I recall correctly). Wear is now occuring in the form of flaking, pitting but in most cases in a form that is not creating small sized particles that will show up in conventional oil analysis! The means that you have possibly crossed over into severe wear and have seen a DROP in iron wear rates when in fact the iron wear rates are off the charts due to pitting of the lobes. Again this can be avoided IF you have been trending the motor. If you have been watching the iron slowely rise and then all of a sudden it drops off or stops rising...CHANGE the oil or perform a ferrography oil analysis ASAP!

For the Non PD motors you at least have options in terms of oils. CI-4+ all the way to 507.00 Again it's just a matter of trending using oil analysis and knowing what you are looking for.

With all that said, I will keep running M1 T&S in my car and M1 EF 0w40 in the Honda. When the Blue-Tec MB shows up I will have to consider using a 507.00 to extend the catalyst and O2 sensor life by using lower Sulfated Ash oils...thats a WHOLE nother topic and my $.02

DB

I believe SUNRG stated that all things being equal a 5w-40 will probably give another 5% in longeivity as compared to the 506.01s.

If that's true, I'll rebuild or replace the engine at 400K miles as opposed to 420K miles, and take the 5-7% increase in fuel economy I'm currently getting after 3000 miles using Elf CRV.

Of course, I'm gonna be looking at wear rates very carefully through UOA. If anything unusual shows up, I'll be going back to Mobil D1 asking her to take me back.
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Old September 17th, 2006, 22:22   #7
wjdell
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The English language is tricky, and its easy to read something in that is not there. Its the latest so it must be the greatest. As far as the test that 506.01 must pass as a 30W, yes there are more test. But there is no head to head test to say 506.01 does this, and 505.01 can not, it simply did not need those test. 505.01 was not intended to be used on the new emission systems. Elf makes no claim that I have read.

To quote Elf,
"Designed specifically to ensure maximum protection during extended oil-change intervals".

Every oil maker out there say their oil gives maximum protection.
So what does that statement really say

It claims to give this protection for a EXTENDED INTERVAL. But in a 5 or 10k OCI does it protect better. It does not say that, and as of now we have no proof. In time the UOA's will tell us something, one two years down the road. I think from the UOA's I have seen shows it does have superior metal to metal protection, BORON. But if its thinner it would need those additives. I think its lower weight could claim better mileage, and many are showing better mileage. Time will tell and it will be interesting to see the final results.
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~ USED OIL ANALYSIS ~ http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=190958
~
1.9 PD Jetta V ~ pkg 1 ~
DSG ~ 17" VV ~ 36/34 psi ~
ULSD ~ DG-BP90 - speed 39.2
hwy/city 83% / 17% ~
elev 58 ft / temp 72 F / humidity 76% ~ MPG 48.3 / 42.8 / 35.6

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Old September 17th, 2006, 23:35   #8
TornadoRed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kier
2004 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon (BEW Engine): 55K miles
I have been using ELF Evolution CRV 506.01 oil for the past three 10K oil changes with excellent results. .... I recently have been viewing posts by others stating that they would never trust a 0W-30 vs a 5W-40. Others have statistically measured the additional costs for the 506.01 vs the 505.01 offerings. Since I perform approx 2 oil changes per year, I don't mind spending the extra 5-6 dollars per liter.
I don't believe the issue has ever been whether 505.01 or 506.01 protects better during a 10k-mile OCI -- they both do just fine.

The issue has been, at least as far as i'm concerned, is whether the benefits of 506.01 outweigh the additional costs.

If you don't care about the costs, then it's hardly worth comparing the benefits.

I tried Elf Evolution CRV, my fuel mileage didn't improve, a UOA test showed it was not suitable for an extended OCI, so I've switched back to a 5w40 motor oil. IMO it was not worth the additional cost.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 08:30   #9
Logismoi
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anyone here using ?


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Old September 18th, 2006, 08:57   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logismoi
anyone here using ?


I hope you're not, seeing as you have a V10 tdi.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 09:12   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Drivbiwire[/B]]Those who decide to run the 506.01 oils MUST establish iron wear trends so they know how well the 506.01 oils are doing in regards to Iron wear and TBN. My prediction is that when a 506.01 crosses it's limit to protect the iron wear rates from the cam and rollers cams will spike, perhaps to the point that the iron itself WILL NOT SHOW UP IN THE ANALYSIS! The reason is simple certain types of wear as in that made of iron which are elevated, WILL NOT SHOW UP IN SPECTROANALYSIS because Spectroanalysis is only accurate in the size of particle less than 3 microns (if I recall correctly). Wear is now occuring in the form of flaking, pitting but in most cases in a form that is not creating small sized particles that will show up in conventional oil analysis! The means that you have possibly crossed over into severe wear and have seen a DROP in iron wear rates when in fact the iron wear rates are off the charts due to pitting of the lobes. Again this can be avoided IF you have been trending the motor. If you have been watching the iron slowely rise and then all of a sudden it drops off or stops rising...CHANGE the oil or perform a ferrography oil analysis ASAP!
i personally used 506.01 past its Fe wear protection limit LINK and in my TDI, under my operating conditions, this limit was somewhere between 16,004 miles and 18,258 miles. [note: my TDI and operating conditions are unique, read my posts here LINK for some of the the details. 506.01 may perform optimally in your TDI for significantly longer than 18k miles, or significantly shorter...]

in my case, the Fe wear spike was detected using common UOAs (spectrochemical analysis), thanks to UOA trending.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 09:29   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tditom
I hope you're not, seeing as you have a V10 tdi.
The OM calls for 505.01 on the V10.

I was asking "generally" what folks used Motul?

What would you say I use for the V10 ? I am leaning towards ELF Evolution 506.01 CRV. The V10 only has 1200 miles on it....so


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Old September 18th, 2006, 09:36   #13
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The owner's manuals for these vehicles are loaded with technical inaccuracies. The V10 diesel does require 506.01 as you and I previously discussed.




the translation between the parent company and the USA subsidiary has clearly been lost. 507.00 will NOT replace 506.01 in this particular application.

Last edited by dieseldorf; September 19th, 2006 at 06:03.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:05   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRG
i personally used 506.01 past its Fe wear protection limit LINK and in my TDI, under my operating conditions, this limit was somewhere between 16,004 miles and 18,258 miles. [note: my TDI and operating conditions are unique, read my posts here LINK for some of the the details. 506.01 may perform optimally in your TDI for significantly longer than 18k miles, or significantly shorter...]
in my case, the Fe wear spike was detected using common UOAs (spectrochemical analysis), thanks to UOA trending.
Looks like the short, infrequent trips are really a lot harder on the oil.

I've noticed the same with the wife's Jetta which uses Mobil D1. Her commuting habits have changed considerably from frequent long distance hauls, to almost exclusive shop and stop.

She was at Fe 55 with around 11K on the oil. I may just keep her on D1 and use 10K OCIs. Soot also was a very low 0.2% and Si was negligible.
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Old September 18th, 2006, 10:29   #15
tditom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logismoi
The OM calls for 505.01 on the V10.

I was asking "generally" what folks used Motul?

What would you say I use for the V10 ? I am leaning towards ELF Evolution 506.01 CRV. The V10 only has 1200 miles on it....so
As DD said, the OM is wrong.

Any 505.01 is good enough for the PD.

Any 506.01 is good enough for the V10tdi. I'm glad you haven't done your first change yet before finding this out.

It would be interesting for you to inquire of your local dealership as to what oil they stock for the V10.
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