www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Fuels & Lubricants

Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 9th, 2006, 01:22   #1
karlaudi
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Fuel Economy: (2002) 41 mpg @ 85 mph +/- 10 mph @ 3,100 rpm with A/C on @ 90 degrees F, fully loaded
Default Amsoil - European 5W-40 Synthetic, Part 2

On 05/18/06, AndyH wrote me a private email in answer to the following:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...&postcount=145

I began the following response, but tabled it due to a brief cold and other family commitments at the time.

Andy’s comments here,

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=47


reminded me to complete my response to the document as follows and AndyH’s ongoing claims that Amsoil AFL actually meets Volkswagen Oil Quality Standards without Amsoil and AndyH notactually knowing what they are and the lack submitting any Amsoil motor oil to the same testing by VW AG that at least 295 other oil brands have done, as of 08/26/06.

As I originally began on 05/19/06:


Hello Andy,

Thank you once again for providing both a Deutsch and English copies of the Central Standard, VW 505 01, April 1999:

Class. No. 57 22 1
Service Engine Oil
Light-running engine oils for high
Performance requirements

I have read this elsewhere here in the various threads we all have written and I trust we can all agree its there without further proof. With your first known (to myself) mention here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...869#post926869

This summary document is divided into following sections, with or without accompanying text


Scope
Requirements
Basic specification
Prototype approval
Scope of prototype testing (without accompanying text)
Increased performance capacity
Reference standards
A.1 Annex to standard

In short, this is a brief summary of what a VW 505.01 oil standard is, compared to VW 502.0 and VW 505.00, and the process for approval. I summarized the subjects as follows:


A summary what the requirements are for a VW 505.01 to remain a VW 505.01 after “having been approved “by After Sales Service”; summary of “Basic specifications” (VW Standards VW 011 55, VW 911 01, 30 liter submission requirement to VW Central Laboratory K-GQ-1, “Shelf life in unopened original packaging at -20 degree to + 50 degree C: > 24 months”.); Summary of “Prototype approval”; summary of “Scope of prototype testing”; summary of “Increased performance capacity”; summary of “Reference standards”; and a summary of “Annex to standard”.


See: http://www.zamslube.com/VW50501-GB.pdf

An objective review of this document, now a seven year old document, and which may have since been superceded, reveals that said document is provided to a company seeking to have a oil(s) tested and approval, by Volkswagen AG, prior to the acceptance of a contract for such testing services and approval(s) of submitting company and VW AG and the subsequent signing of such contract and confidentiality and proprietary agreements between the submitting [oil] company and Volkswagen AG.

What we can conclude then, is that, Andy H’s repeated references to this document as being the document that expressly spells out the Volkswagen Oil Quality Standard VW 505.01 remain incorrect.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...&postcount=129

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...69&postcount=1


This document merely outlines the approval process and deliberately omits the actual definitions of the VW 505.01 specification in Section 3 to a prospective company wishing to submit its motor oil for approval by Volkswagen.

We can surmise that this information will be provided by Volkswagen AG once a contract has been signed and appropriate Confidentially and Proprietary Information Documents have been signed between the Volkswagen and the respective oil approval requestor.

The following Posts by AndyH show that while claiming that Amsoil European Formula meets VW 505.01, VW505.00, and VW502.00 no actual proof is ever provided.



Reference to checking Castrol / Motul and compairing them to see if Amsoil meets VW 505.01 rather than submitting AFL to Volkswagen.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...04&postcount=7

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=14



The following threads seem to me to be contradictory as well.

1) Inferred testing in a lab certified by VW means the same as passing the Volkswagen Oil Quality Standard Process and therefore Amsoil meets VW specs.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=32

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=20


2) Andy claims / blames Volkswagen for not “fully” releasing 505.01 and states Amsoil unwilling to pay the testing fees to get actual Volkswagen 505.01 Oil Quality Standard specifications.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...18&postcount=1


While Amsoil European Formula/ AFL and other Amsoil products may be fine quality products, AndyH’s long standing claims of AFL meeting VW 505.01 et al Oil Quality Standards remains untrue and/ or are intended to be misleading, in so far, as Amsoil and Independent Amsoil Dealer’s are unable to provide the necessary certification documentation similar to what is shown below or are able to provide conclusive proof that they know what the actual oil formulations are, that are required to meet any and all Volkswagen Oil Quality Standards.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=10



__________________
2000 Audi A4 1.8T Avant quattro (totaled while parked 04/2008)
2004 Audi A4 1.8T Avant quattro 6-speed, Sport Suspension and Premium options (VW / Audi Dealer trade-in 04/2012)
2002 Volkswagen Golf GLS 1.9 TDi (new 01/2003)
2012 Volkswagen Golf 2.0 TDi (new 04/2012)
karlaudi is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 03:59   #2
shaark92
Veteran Member
 
shaark92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Erath County, Texas
Fuel Economy: 48
Default Mercy!

What Amsoil experience poo-pooed in yer Post Toasties???

...

I appreciate your information, karlaudi ... really. Frankly, I really don't see how a manufacturer can avoid liability on such a claimed performance ... much like in another thread's description where the DSGs are having trouble --- VW is having to do better than simply replace the tranny.

Amsoil would have to pony-up if their oil isn't what they claim. I'm not "married" to Amsoil ... but I do admit it's "fitting the bill" for PD TDI's would make me happy. (performance, availability, price)

Al
__________________
SOLDBACK 4/17/17: '12 Jetta, DSG, Tornado Red w/ Beige interior
'06 Jetta, Spice Red/Beige pkg 2, 5 spd (first VW), EGR Delete, .658 5th gear, Colt 2 Cam, Southbend Endura Clutch, Kerma Tune

VAG-COM novice
'11 Ford F350 PSD, 4x4
shaark92 is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 05:56   #3
LanduytG
 
LanduytG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Greenfield, IN
Default

Way to much time on your hands.

Greg
__________________
TDI CLUB Supporting Vendor
Check out our Online Store
Fumoto Oil Drain Valve
Amsoil Synthetic's Dealer Wholesale Pricing
1-888-306-4255
LanduytG is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 07:11   #4
tditom
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: san antonio & austin
Fuel Economy: Golf: 54/48/43.5 B4 Passat: 52/48.5/45 B5.5 Passat: 30 mpg mixed
Default

This thread is an attack on AndyH's character, IMO. He has been forthcoming, professional and very patient in the face of many attacks like this. He is continually trying to learn more, and passes this knowledge on to this forum.

I won't try to argue Karl point by point, but will make the following points:

1) No one on this site has ever reported a failure of an Amsoil product when it is used in an approved application.

2) Amsoil has operated for 30+ years largely based on their product reputation. They have chosen a very difficult path of not obtaining OEM certification for all of their products. This is their business decision, as is their marketing/distribution technique. The reasons for this are not clearly spelled out in their publicly available literature. One way of looking at this is that they may be putting the money saved by these approaches back into their R&D, engineering, mfg process. Because of this approach re. certification, if they have a failure in an application that they claim their product is recommended for, the cost to them is huge. Because of this, their tendency is to over-engineer their products to not just meet, but beat the spec by a safe margin.

3) In reported non-tdi applications where there has been an engine failure and the OE dealer claimed the Amsoil product was at fault, Amsoil stood behind their warranty and got the end user back on the road first, then proved that the oil was not the cause of the failure, and were re-imbursed by the OEM. Their motivation to get the end user back up and running first is again driven by the fact that their reputation is first and foremost in their business plan. In respect to this, they welcome the liability- they don't avoid it.
__________________
-tom
autos: 15 Volvo V60, 08 MB E320 Bluetec
Find your VW part numbers here.
Why I recommend fuel additive.
tditom is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 07:22   #5
Thermo1223
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Easton, PA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tditom

2) Amsoil has operated for 30+ years largely based on their product reputation. They have chosen a very difficult path of not obtaining OEM certification for all of their products. This is their business decision, as is their marketing/distribution technique. The reasons for this are not clearly spelled out in their publicly available literature. One way of looking at this is that they may be putting the money saved by these approaches back into their R&D, engineering, mfg process. Because of this approach re. certification, if they have a failure in an application that they claim their product is recommended for, the cost to them is huge. Because of this, their tendency is to over-engineer their products to not just meet, but beat the spec by a safe margin.
How can you over engineer a product whose soul purpose is to compete against a much larger and proven version when you have no idea what went into that proven version to make it what it is.

You won't submit to testing because it would really cut into your bottom line but a couple of engine failures wouldn't?

I find that for them to recommend thier oil over proper 505.01 stuff to be amusing. Proper 505.01 oil is not recommended by VWoA, it is required.

Amsoil makes great stuff but 505.01 oil is not one of them.
__________________

Gone
00' Jetta 5M - '04 JW A5 - 09' Forester XT
New Blood
'16 Tiguan
Thermo1223 is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 07:27   #6
nortones2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: High Peak, UK
Fuel Economy: 35 if I'm lucky.
Default

I think the issue is one of fact, re the very recent assertion in this thread (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...=138982&page=4) that Amsoil has had their product tested by an independent facility to the same standard as VW requirements. I find that hard to believe, as it would require confidentiality agreements to be broken for a very small player in the overall oil market. Unless VW have prior knowledge, and are going to include Amsoil on their list of approved oils for the PD.
nortones2 is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 07:43   #7
Davidbru2
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: McDonough GA
TDI(s): 2000 Jetta
Fuel Economy: 54 mpg highest
Default

I
Quote:
find that for them to recommend thier oil over proper 505.01 stuff to be amusing. Proper 505.01 oil is not recommended by VWoA, it is required.

Amsoil makes great stuff but 505.01 oil is not one of them.
I don't understand why this debate will not die. I am an Amsoil user and dealer. I have used their products for 20+years now. I can remember when they started selling their 100:1 premix 2 cycle. A lot of people said, its not the factory correct, they didn't test it for a Polaris.....same type of situation. Turns out, that 2 cycle is some great stuff. Everyone who used it came back and bought more. I still have many customers who started trusting Amsoils products because of that $2.50 bottle of 2 cycle.

While I know our $4000 TDI engine is a much bigger expense than some little 2 cycle engine, and I respect everyone who is truely looking for the best possible protection for their engine. I must say it kind of comes down to a matter of trust with everything you purchase. What do you feel comfortable with. Everyone who buys something expects it to perform as stated. Amsoil for me has been one of those products that exceeds what I expected of it. If for some reason they ever fail me, I will stop trusting what they are selling. But me and many people like me have had wonderful results using their products.

If you don't trust them and don't feel comfortable with their level of testing then by all means don't buy anything they sell.
__________________
DavidBru
Davidbru2 is offline  
Old June 9th, 2006, 07:46   #8
BKmetz
Administrator
 
BKmetz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1997
Location: Illinois
Fuel Economy: 50 MPG
Default



Well, it didn't take long to send this one down. I agree that this thread is an excuse for a personal attack.

Amsoil is what it is. Accept it, get over it, move on, because nobody in the history of the Internet has ever convinced anyone else of anything pro or con about Amsoil.

People who want to use Amsoil will. For that reason Amsoil can be discussed on TDIClub. The Amsoil threads would be considerably fewer, shorter, and die for lack of interest sooner if the critics would not post. There is not much point to an Amsoil thread when you only have posts that are preaching to the choir.

It's for this reason I have little tolerance for all the PMs and emails I get from the anti-Amsoil cult. The mindset that Amsoil is the oil one loves to hate, so posting nothing productive in any and all redundant Amsoil threads is done for simple sport, is offensive to me. When the pro-Amsoil guys get a thread going, it's just another oil thread to me.

I'm going to start editing, locking, and deleting Amsoil threads aggressively to make my point. This goes for BOTH sides. I handed out a lot of time-outs last month for a lot of silliness. I'll hand out more and make the time limits longer. I will ignore emails and PMs from any lobbying efforts from both sides, and those who think I'm unfair, drinking the Koolaid, gone to the dark side, etc. If anyone ends up on the bad end of my keyboard, enjoy it, you earned it.

Time to grow up, get a life, move on, accept it, get over it, what ever it takes. It's only oil, nothing more...

__________________
Brian, 2015 Passat SE TDI 6MT, 2014 Passat SE TDI 6MT sold back to VW on 1-3-18
Wifey, 2014 Passat SE 2.5

If ANYONE receives a PM/email from a TDIClub member shilling anything and they are NOT a registered vendor, please forward the PM/emails to me. To report spam, trolling, or any problem post, click the report post icon. (The icon in the actual problem post, not the one in my sig. The idiots know who they are... )

Last edited by BKmetz; June 9th, 2006 at 10:12.
BKmetz is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.16261 seconds with 9 queries
[Output: 94.20 Kb. compressed to 82.21 Kb. by saving 11.98 Kb. (12.72%)]