DSG vs 5spd and 6spd... VW official info

Just to dispell some rumors about DSG cars being faster...

Taken from here (in German, translated pertinent facts below):

http://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/medias_publish/ms/content/de/pressemitteilungen/2004/04/26/dsg__plus_tdi__im.standard.gid-oeffentlichkeit.html

1.9 PD TDI info as follows:

Acceleration (0-100kph, 0-62mph):

5 spd - 11.3 seconds
6 spd - 11.1 seconds
DSG - 11.2 seconds

2.0 TDI (140hp) info:

Acceleration (0-100kph, 0-62mph):

Manual trans - 9.3 seconds
DSG - 9.3 seconds

Fuel Consumption:

VW claims that the DSG fuel comsumption approaches the manual transmission fuel consumption within 0.1L/100km. They clearly state it is not as fuel efficient.

Also interesting to note is that there is different tuning on some DSG models. They specifically state that THE ONLY REASON A DSG WOULD BE FASTER 0-100kph IS IF THE CAR IS TUNED FOR MORE POWER! (boost?)

DrSmile said:

5 spd - 11.3 seconds
6 spd - 11.1 seconds
DSG - 11.2 seconds

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I gottah laugh.

yea, oh Yea .... OH YEA!!!!!

Question?


Show me someone who can shift a manual transmission perfectly each time from a standing stop and his name would be Richard Petty.

You take two identicle motors, two identicle model cars, two average drivers, one w/DSG and one w/manual ....and hands down the DSG will leave the manual in the dust.

Unless his name is Richard Petty.

yea, oh Yea .... OH YEA!!!!!

Brian

DSG vs. 6-speed manual in GTIs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMNRQ1GJ3o&search=dsg

Too bad we don't have launch control on our TDIs

The reason I posted this info is specifically to counter the arguments of that video. The cars in the video aren't tuned the same, and when they are, the DSG offers no performance advantage. The DSG isn't as efficient as the manual, and when you're NOT shifting, the manual should pull ahead, then the DSG catches up when it shifts faster than the manual.

DrSmile said:

...the DSG offers no performance advantage....

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Manual transmission shifting is defined by: Human Error

Let me explain it to you this way. There is no error driving a DSG. If you're calculating 100's of a seconds difference between manual and DSG ...human error in a manual will eventually prevail as the single or most common down fall.

Do you kind'a understand where I'm going with this?

Next do some driving around town with your cup of coffee in one hand, your cell phone in your other and a donut hanging out of your mouth ...as most commuters are found here in Connecticut. That would be an excellent test bed on manual vs. DSG.



Brian

I don't drink coffee or donuts while driving... People driving automatic cars do that!

As for performance, I absolutely disagree on that also. Once you're making turns, the shift points start making a real difference. No way the shift points in auto mode on a DSG are going to help you in any way, so you're stuck using Manual mode. In that (full) video for example, the track time for the DSG GTI was slower than the time for the manual one.

My point is it comes down to laziness vs driving ability. And if you're shifting every day, you're going to be better at doing that than someone who doesn't when performance is desired.

DrSmile said:

...you're going to be better at doing that than someone who doesn't when performance is desired.

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You're like Clint Eastwood. Last man standing. Sun in your eyes, hat tilted and you draw first and get your bullet to flesh first.

Bottom line. Real world is just that. Not each and every manual transmission driver is on top of their game 100% of the time at any given moment unless they leave their house with racing boots, slited leather gloves with a flame retardant jump suit. Real world is what DSG can do in an instant that a manual can not ...which is match a gear in a 100th of a second ...even by accident.



Now, I'll meet you at dusk at the corner of Vine and Boulevard rear exit of the Dunkin Donuts and we'll prove my point.

Do you like cream and sugar or just black?

LOL.

Brian

It must be just me left... oh, and maybe BMW who just released the new M roadster WITHOUT an available paddle shifter. I'm sure they used the 6 spd because putting in the SMG would have just made it "too sporty." Oh and of course Porsche which decided it's $180K new Turbo S just would have to manage with a 6 spd.

The DSG is well and good for people used to automatics... and who don't mind paying big $ for fixing transmissions when they break.

DrSmile said:

It must be just me left...

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Not really. I enjoy the manual transmission greatly while using the down shifting and throttle blips in turns more successfully then perhaps w/DGS. But it is the future of engineering and the DSG will only get better with each model year. It's really a delightful transmission now that I've got a couple thousand miles under the belt using one these past weeks.

There are times when too much is going on behind the wheel and that DSG seems to drop into favourites on safety.

Did you know you roll backwards on inclines when stopped if you take your foot off the brake pedal? It responds like a true standard transmission.

Even in some bad respects.

Brian

I'm not a luddite, but I don't share Brian's worship of technology. Humans are still better at what goes on, subject to the whims of laziness.

By the same token, reliance on any one thing doesn't work either. Different strokes for different folks.

TM

Tin Man said:

...I'm not a luddite, but I don't share Brian's worship of technology....
TM

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Good choice of noun "Luddite." It stems from the fear that machine could replace manual labour. I'm of a cloth which narrates candle light to floresent-bulb, live orchestra to i-pod and horse drawn carriage to the combustion engine.

Whether we like it or not, the manual transmission will be considered obsolete as beading a loom.

As a postman to this e-mail.

Brian

Live orchestra concerts, as well as performance in such, is my thing. No I-pod can compare. To each his own. But I don't buy any of your conclusions. The real thing is better.

TM

Tin Man said:

... But I don't buy any of your conclusions. The real thing is better.

TM

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OH! The goode Olde Days!

BrianCT said:

OH! The goode Olde Days!

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Lets see, we've had the automatic starter since when? At least as long as we have had automatics, right?

Then why do some of the best cars, the most advanced cars, still come with a manual?

Too much to think about, eh?

TM

I use to know a guy that was very old school and didn't want a new car for fear of the 'high tech' electronics and that included such wizardry as electric windows, power brakes and power steering. There will always be people like that you will never understand let alone convince to the contrary.

Tin Man said:

Lets see, we've had the automatic starter since when? At least as long as we have had automatics.
TM

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Self-starter, Cadillac 1912. Automatic transmission, Oldsmobile 1940.

Kabin said:

I use to know a guy that was very old school and didn't want a new car for fear of the 'high tech' electronics and that included such wizardry as electric windows, power brakes and power steering. There will always be people like that you will never understand let alone convince to the contrary.

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So, you're saying that Porsche, BMW, and most top rated cars in their division (even the Camry) will stop offering manual transmissions?

What people are you referring to?

TM

For every one useful innovation, there are countless initially seemingly brilliant improvements destined for obsolescence. Automatic seatbelts, digital dashboards, daytime running lights, and current gas/electric hybrids are perfect examples. Remember the low-flush toilet? DSG is good, but it isn't a manual transmission. And anyone forecasting the impending death of the manual transmission has been blinded by the light of Audi's hubris.

DrSmile said:

... And anyone forecasting the impending death of the manual transmission has been blinded by the light of Audi's hubris.

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This depends on how a DSG is marketed, ...or for that matter any type of transmission in this "family" of design. Maybe these transmissions are manuals.

Expert Salesperson Speaking to Customer:
You see? The DSG is a manual transmission. It just does not have a clutch pedal. And this slot here? You move it up and down and it will shift at your desire, but no clutch pedal. Look here too, better highway mileage. Donuts, coffee and cellular phone full-hand-friendly.

Lots of people felt the same way about automatic exposure and focus cameras. And, while you may need manual focus or manual exposure in some circumstances, 99.9 percent of the time you don't. I, too, like a manual transmission for some reasons, but once someone gets an automaic that does everything the manual does, and probably more, there will be no reason to use a manual transmission other than nostalgia.

Tin Man said:

So, you're saying that Porsche, BMW, and most top rated cars in their division (even the Camry) will stop offering manual transmissions?

What people are you referring to?

TM

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I'm not saying it is but it could be the same type of person that would compare a BWM and Porsche to a VW.

DrSmile said:

And anyone forecasting the impending death of the manual transmission has been blinded by the light of Audi's hubris.

Click to expand...

I was going to take the position that the DSG may, in fact, begin the not quite total demise of manuals...however, I will refrain, as being associated in any small way with Audi gives me the willies.

What happens if the turbo fails with the auto tranny? If it spools up on it's own oil the best way to save the engine is to lift the stall the engine with the clutch and brakes. Can this be done with the DSG?

mavapa said:

Lots of people felt the same way about automatic exposure and focus cameras. And, while you may need manual focus or manual exposure in some circumstances, 99.9 percent of the time you don't. I, too, like a manual transmission for some reasons, but once someone gets an automatic that does everything the manual does, and probably more, there will be no reason to use a manual transmission other than nostalgia.

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Yeah, I know all about it. My manual focus SLR will produce 15 mega pixel images with no delay in shooting, which works better 80% of the time. Its also paid for, so springing $2000 for the latest Nikon (SLR with lenses, fast action, all the latest advances) would be nice, but not in the budget. And yes, the manual focus SLR is harder to use and can be distracting. I can tell you that it brings the best shots due to the instantaneous shutter and bright viewfinder. It will take a few more years to improve on it, IMO, but that day will come. Still, an old Leica brings a lot of respect and is timeless.

The DSG is a great tranny but is currently $1000 more expensive than the manual 5 speed. Knowing Porsches, the Boxter still goes around the slalom better with the standard 5 speed than with the optional 6 speed or the tiptronic. It is more expensive to fix I am sure. But its great if you want to eat donuts and drink coffee while driving.

I say, diversity is good and to each their own.

TM

dsg is a manual trans.... when its in gear and accellerating.. its a manual... no torque converter, no slip...

only the computer programed shift points and take off routines that are programed to be "" soft "" for the driver and to make the car last longer...

if i am truely racing a standard trans... i do things like dump the clutch at high rpms that are prudent to normal driving... or longevity...

so do you need the manual...

some need to yank off all the time.... others dont....

some see every stop light as a chrismas tree and have to leave rubber..

others dont...
in the diesel, the dsg has faster accelleration than the 6 sp and higher hiway mpg to boot..

in the gas, its in between the 5 sp and 6sp... so if your in a diesel... what are you thinking??? you didnt buy a diesel to drag race unless your ... well a bit imature... you should have bought it for mpg and longevitgy...

and the dsg has the best of both... higher hiway mpg.. and has faster accelleration ...

if you buying the dsg in the gti... your buying a gadget car for someone who wants the shifting and racing... so go ahead and get a 15 speed and shift your heart out.... you gotta grab the stick and play with it... you gotta do the aj foyt thing... so knock yourself out...

but dont try to rationalize the dsg vrs the manual on a diesel car or your talking out of both sides of your mouth... your here for the mpg and thats what counts... so the only arguement is that the manual gets better city mpg,, the dsg gets better hiway mpg and accellerates faster on the diesels... so if your getting older go with the dsg... if your young and cocky,,, do the 6 speed and dont confuse us with the facts...


remember...
figures never lie...
liers always figure....

The fuel economy is basically the same. Its a wash.

The cost of the DSG is not.

Go figure your way out of that one.

TM

Fun Factor, however, is way in favor of the DSG and worth the money...though would be better with paddles.

My '02 is a 5-speed and I absolutely love it, wanted a manual for our next car (as did my wife). However, after trying the DSG, we were sold. My wife even admits she loves it! Too bad we are having to sell it

Tin Man said:

The fuel economy is basically the same. Its a wash.

The cost of the DSG is not.

Go figure your way out of that one.

TM

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Couple of items come to mind right off the bat.

• Trade in value on a DSG will be considerably higher than a manual transmission
• 5-sp Manual transmissions on these boards have been known to slip even with mild upgrades like injectors or a tuning box
• Cost of upgrading a clutch is costly especially if you upgrade power
• DSG can handle 250 lb torque far better then a manual transmission
• Multi Driver Family with a DSG is a safer alternative
• Personal relaxation inner city, stop and go and at toll booths
• Two donuts, two cups of coffee in ea. hand with multiple cellphones while driving is a metropolitan plus ...could even take up guitar lessons in rush hour

BrianCT said:

Couple of items come to mind right off the bat.

• Trade in value on a DSG will be considerably higher than a manual transmission
• 5-sp Manual transmissions on these boards have been known to slip even with mild upgrades like injectors or a tuning box
• Cost of upgrading a clutch is costly especially if you upgrade power
• DSG can handle 250 lb torque far better then a manual transmission
• Multi Driver Family with a DSG is a safer alternative
• Personal relaxation inner city, stop and go and at toll booths
• Two donuts, two cups of coffee in ea. hand with multiple cellphones while driving is a metropolitan plus ...could even take up guitar lessons in rush hour

Click to expand...

To each his own. Ours has 125,000 miles on the original clutch and brake pads. How many miles will the DSG last? I guess you would be guessing on that one too. One of each is better.

TM