www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You

Order your TDIClub merchandise and help support TDIClub


Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 29th, 2006, 09:22   #1
TDiMike
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Fuel Economy: 49/40/35 MPG
Default Common Rail and Biodiesel

What the concensus here - is 1600 bar injection pressure engine (new VW common rail) ready for extended, multiseason biodiesel use w/o additional problems?

I mean, the current crop of diesel engineers are set on making diesel spray as fine as possible, and under high pressure. What's a change in fuel viscosity going to do to an injection system like this after extended use? I'm talking about bio that meets ASTM-spec yet still varies from the viscosity of dino diesel or ULSD.

Now, the ALH engine and it's lower injection pressures is more than tolerant of extended B100 use, as everyone here knows. Finally we're seeing biodiesel availability and pricing "hitting its stride" in North America. Are we now going to get the rug pulled out from under us by Common Rail sensitivity to anything >B5 ?!

Input from the JeepCRD, Sprinter, E320 CDI, or heavy duty domestic truck crowd or weblinks to their discussion would certainly be relevant here.
__________________
-
1979 Rabbit Diesel L, Mars Red, two-door (sold)
2001 Golf GLS TDI, Reflex Silver (sold)
2009 Jetta TDI Sportwagon, 6sp Manual, Highline, Blue Graphite Pearl. (Order Cancelled)
2007 Subaru Forester 2.5XS Premium (new)

Last edited by TDiMike; May 30th, 2006 at 09:32.
TDiMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2006, 11:18   #2
DPM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newtownards, N. Ireland
Fuel Economy: 38.5- 47 Forester, Citroen 55- 63
Default

PSA will only warrant B5 in their common-rail engines. I've run mine up to B80 (highest available locally) quite satisfactorily. Quieter, smoother, a few mpg worse. No injection-system side-effects that I can attribute.
DPM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2006, 11:20   #3
RC
Veteran Member
 
RC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Maryland`s Eastern Shore
Default

The $64,000 question TDiMike.

If there is a will by the manufacturer and OEM supplier to design/build equipment to handle various viscosity biofuels it can be done. Will there be the demand/attention? Time, and a good deal of work, will tell.
__________________
Two 96 TDI Passat Wagons, Bypass Filters, Chipped
87 MB 300TD, 97 Ram2500, Kubota Tractor
24 cylinders sipping the sweet sauce of the soy bean
RC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2006, 15:45   #4
BioThomas
Veteran Member
 
BioThomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Humble, TX
Fuel Economy: ~43 mpg
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC
The $64,000 question TDiMike.

If there is a will by the manufacturer and OEM supplier to design/build equipment to handle various viscosity biofuels it can be done. Will there be the demand/attention? Time, and a good deal of work, will tell.
There appears to be a continuous drive towards biofuels, as in biodiesel and ethanol, especially in Europe. I believe that the engineers will be forced to take this into consideration. After all, if they don't sell any cars, they'll be out of a job.
__________________
Thomas

2006 Jetta TDI - Campanella white - 6 speed automatic w/DSG - Pkg 1
ScanGauge - Garmin c320
*** Reines Fahrvergnügen ***
My Stats
BioThomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 05:33   #5
naturist
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
Default

TDIMike, the jury is still out on possible bad effects of the higher viscosity biodiesel vs petroleum diesel on common-rail injection systems.

I know of people running Liberty CRDs on B100 exclusively. So far, with a tiny sample of a half-dozen units, averaging around 13,000 miles each, no problems BUT this is too small a sample of vehicles to be statistically significant AND says nothing about long-tern effects, such as erroded injector orfices.
naturist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 09:14   #6
TDiMike
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Fuel Economy: 49/40/35 MPG
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturist
TDIMike, the jury is still out on possible bad effects of the higher viscosity biodiesel vs petroleum diesel on common-rail injection systems.

I know of people running Liberty CRDs on B100 exclusively. So far, with a tiny sample of a half-dozen units, averaging around 13,000 miles each, no problems BUT this is too small a sample of vehicles to be statistically significant AND says nothing about long-tern effects, such as erroded injector orfices.
Your CRD reports is very interesting, and I hope you'll continue to update the masses on this group's success with B100. Long term and performance of B100 or B20 in near-freezing climates would also be valuable to pass along.
__________________
-
1979 Rabbit Diesel L, Mars Red, two-door (sold)
2001 Golf GLS TDI, Reflex Silver (sold)
2009 Jetta TDI Sportwagon, 6sp Manual, Highline, Blue Graphite Pearl. (Order Cancelled)
2007 Subaru Forester 2.5XS Premium (new)
TDiMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 09:21   #7
McBrew
Veteran Member
 
McBrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Annapolis, MD
Fuel Economy: 54/50/44 (usually running B100)
Default

My Sprinter seems to run fine on B100... but more than half of it's 56,000 miles were petro-diesel. That ratio is going up in favor of bio now that I have remped up production in my garage!

Like RC said, time will tell.
__________________
-McBrew
2015 Fiat 500 Abarth cabriolet.
2016 Kia Sedona - the wife's car, but I secretly like it.
Still have 3 TDIs in the family fleet.
McBrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 18:32   #8
bioTDInBENZ
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: So.San.Fran. Califaz
Default

Mercedes did tests in india on 2 C320 CDI's and a CDI van. Ran them on japthora B100 for 100,000 miles trouble free. The link on the article seems to be broken on daimler-chrylers site. But they may have updated it.

But if i remember correctly they drove the cars in freezing temps with B100 in the tank and the cars were all fine. They had the "biodiesel option" installed but from my understanding all that is, is sensor that calculates how much biodiesel is in the tank and change the fuel pressure to lower the nox increase.
__________________
05 Passat TDI 40kmiles 50mpg!(when on D2)B100!!
87 Mercedes 300D OM603 engine..fast mofo!! beat your TDI
83 Mercedes 300SD 300Kmiles wvo powered
78 Mercedes 300D 437Kmiles wvo powered
bioTDInBENZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 19:07   #9
Audi5000TDI
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: CA, Good old USA
Fuel Economy: 44,51, 59.08 mpg
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bioTDInBENZ
Mercedes did tests in india on 2 C320 CDI's and a CDI van. Ran them on japthora B100 for 100,000 miles trouble free. The link on the article seems to be broken on daimler-chrylers site. But they may have updated it.

But if i remember correctly they drove the cars in freezing temps with B100 in the tank and the cars were all fine. They had the "biodiesel option" installed but from my understanding all that is, is sensor that calculates how much biodiesel is in the tank and change the fuel pressure to lower the nox increase.
Please elaborate on how changing the fuel pressure lowers the NOx emmisions and how the pressure lowering in acomplished.. A link would be useful to promote this wonderful feature.
Audi5000TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 22:32   #10
bioTDInBENZ
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: So.San.Fran. Califaz
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audi5000TDI
Please elaborate on how changing the fuel pressure lowers the NOx emmisions and how the pressure lowering in acomplished.. A link would be useful to promote this wonderful feature.
yeah the link seems to be broken, it explained the "biodiesel option" just do a search of "common rail biodiesel" and the old topic should come up with the link but again its a broken link. Got the link off the mercedesshop forum, they explained the option as well, i can go searching for that as well.
__________________
05 Passat TDI 40kmiles 50mpg!(when on D2)B100!!
87 Mercedes 300D OM603 engine..fast mofo!! beat your TDI
83 Mercedes 300SD 300Kmiles wvo powered
78 Mercedes 300D 437Kmiles wvo powered
bioTDInBENZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30th, 2006, 23:23   #11
DPM
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Newtownards, N. Ireland
Fuel Economy: 38.5- 47 Forester, Citroen 55- 63
Default

Injection pressure, and thus quality of atomisation is freely selectable on a common-rail vehicle. Rail pressure is set using a closed-loop feedback circuit, from a map in the ECU.
Now I'm no emissions expert so I'm going out on a limb here; but cooled EGR reduces NOx by promoting poorer and cooler combustion, right? I'd guess a lower rail pressure and therefore larger droplets might just do the same thing...
DPM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31st, 2006, 04:29   #12
naturist
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Bro Jerry's hometown, Virginia
Default

DPM, you may be right about the larger droplets being the reason lower pressures might reduce NOx.

But the reason cooled EGR gasses lower NOx isn't poorer combustion, but that the increased mass of inert gas (ie, not oxygen) lowers combustion temperatures (more mass to heat up) and the reduction in the oxygen concentration shifts the O2 + N2 <-> NOx equilibrium reaction to the left, away from NOx.

One of the beauties of using piezo-electric injectors is that you can put in multiple small injection events each power stroke, spreading out the burn, thereby lowering peak temperatures (when the NOx is formed) and reducing the need for an EGR system.
naturist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2006, 16:28   #13
McBrew
Veteran Member
 
McBrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Annapolis, MD
Fuel Economy: 54/50/44 (usually running B100)
Default

I might be taking back my "Sprinter runs fine on B100" claim. It suddenly lost a lot of power the other day, and hasn't gotten it back. All signs point to the low pressure fuel pump (lift pump). That sucker is about $400. I'll keep everyone posted.
__________________
-McBrew
2015 Fiat 500 Abarth cabriolet.
2016 Kia Sedona - the wife's car, but I secretly like it.
Still have 3 TDIs in the family fleet.
McBrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2006, 03:05   #14
RC
Veteran Member
 
RC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Maryland`s Eastern Shore
Default

Looking forward to any updates Jesse. Hope it doesn`t turn out to be too bad for you... or us all. Thanks for your commitment.
__________________
Two 96 TDI Passat Wagons, Bypass Filters, Chipped
87 MB 300TD, 97 Ram2500, Kubota Tractor
24 cylinders sipping the sweet sauce of the soy bean
RC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2006, 08:53   #15
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Boise, Idaho
Fuel Economy: Who cares, it's a diesel!
Default

VW's Common rail motor will have injection pressures of 2500bar, thats 37,000 psi folks.

This will be done by using a standard common rail high pressure pump (24,000 psi) then have pressure stepping within the injectors to bump it another 13,000 psi at the nozzle.

The other aspect is we will be looking at 5 injections per combustion stroke verses the current 2. However the biggest difference is the injection events are electroniclly controlled rather than a simple hydraulic system as in the TDI. The multiple injections are and can be shut off during certain operating conditions where noise is not a factor (hard acceleration).

It can be done, but I suspect that specific changes will have to be made to the fuel systems. If I recall the CDI with the Biodiesel modification has different injectors than the D#2 models.

DB
__________________
Specializing in Injectors for CRI, CR, PD, VE, IDI VW, Audi, MB, SEAT and Skoda Diesel engines.
Offical Importer, Distributor and Installer for Fratelli Bosio, S.R.L. North America
Quotes and Pricing for TDI Injectors
Drivbiwire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.16546 seconds with 9 queries
[Output: 125.17 Kb. compressed to 104.01 Kb. by saving 21.16 Kb. (16.90%)]