www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums TDIFAQ Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2014 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You



Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 26th, 2000, 05:55   #1
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default More TDI Fuel Injector Information

My previous post on the VW 1.9L ALH TDI Engine Fuel Injection Equipment:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VE pump Type Bosch VE VP 37
Plunger dia. 10mm
Lift cam c1000 = 1.2 m/s
Pre-lift 0 mm
Cutoff cross-section 2 x 4 mm
Constant-pressure valve 60 bar /dia. 0.7 mm

Injector - Dual spring version, minimum dead volume
Lift I : 0.06 mm
Lift II : 0.25 mm

Nozzle P-type, VCO-nozzle
Hole dia. 5 x 0.21 mm
Pressure stage 4 x 2.2 mm

Opening pressure
PI :l80bar
II : 330 bar
Delivery angle 150
Length of hole 1.0 mm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data from the 5-Cylinder 75kW VW T4 TDI Engine:

Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump
Injectors - Bosch P442
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data from the 5-Cylinder 111kW T4 TDI Engine

Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump
Injectors - P764

Injector - Dual Spring version, minimum dead volume
Lift I : 0.06mm
Lift II : 0.25mm

Nozzle P-type, VCO-nozzle
Hole dia. 5 X 0.216 mm

Opening Pressure
PI : 220bar
PII : 300bar

---------------------------------------------
Christi, it appears that the T4 5-Cylinder 111kW TDI engine has the exact same Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump as our 1.9L TDI's do. The nozzles also match our 1.9 TDI's exactly too. The new upgraded high output fuel injectors on that motor are the "BOSCH P764" units. Does your European parts database have any information on these "High Output" Bosch fuel injectors? They would be a simple upgrade to any TDI 1.9L 4-cylinder produced since 1990, since they all utilize the Bosch VE VP 37.

I also have a list of all the Mercedes, BMW, Citroen, Renault, Fiat, Alfa, etc. 4-cylinder European diesel engines that also utilize the Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump.

If you could get ahold of these 111 kW T4 fuel injectors, I would be happy to purchase some!
  Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2000, 07:04   #2
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Here is why I think this simple larger injector bolt-on may work very well with no changes at all to the ECU, especially if the new injectors are only a little bigger than standard.

With the MAF telling the ECU what mixtures are being run in most conditions and with the ECU capable of self-learning, a good long drive may be all that it takes for the ECU to compensate for the new injectors' flow rate. Over-rich mixtures run for a short time won't do any damage, and the ease and cost-efficiency of this approach leaves everything else behind.

The most likely requirement for these larger injectors would be that the output of the major load sensor (MAF & MAP) will need to be changed. If the ECU thinks that there is less load than there really is, it will reduce the pulse width (opening time) of the injectors. This reduced pulse width, coupled with the bigger injectors, means that the right amount of fuel can then flow.
In other words, if the ECU thinks that only enough fuel for 50hp is needed while a demand for 70 is actually required, it will pulse the injectors to provide 50hp of fuel. However, with the bigger injectors in place, enough fuel flow for 70hp will actually be injected! So, making the computer sense a lower engine load than is actually occurring will straighten-up the microprocessor and make the higher fuel quantity levels flow. Remember that in out TDI engines, power is directly proportional to fuel quantitiy!
  Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2000, 07:29   #3
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Read about the upgrade of the 75Kw engine to the 111kW engine here, look at the BOSCH VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump table with the list of the changes made to increase the fuel quantity to accomodate the increased power output!

http://<br /> <a href="http://trans...FVW-T4.htm</a>
  Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2000, 08:23   #4
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

With all due respect, the injection pump that we have is a positive-displacement device. The quantity of fuel behind the cutoff sleeve is the quantity that gets injected regardless of the injector.

The injection may occur at a different *pressure* but the *volume* of injected fuel won't change, the way I see it. According to the specs, the only difference appears to be higher initial opening pressure and lower secondary opening pressure, the difference between 0.21mm and 0.216mm holes (a) is very slight and (b) could be due to someone cutting off the last digit when typing...

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI
GoFaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2000, 08:31   #5
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Brian, I believe that at all time the VE37 is supplying an over abundance of fuel to the injector. The injector only uses what it fills up with, the rest is returned to the pump and then the tank. These other TDIs produce more kW per cylinder with the exact same pump, the turbo is upgraded for more airflow and pressure, the intercooler is increased in volume to handle that, and the injectors are increased in fuel quantity delivery rate (volume delivered per unit of time) to flow more fuel since the other upgrades are worthless without more fuel.

I believe the pump can easily handle more injector flow with larger injectors.

You are right though, in the the 5-hole nozzles are the same size, so therefore maybe more flow is impossible without more pressure. But, it certainly is worthy of a more complete investigation. From what I understand, replacement injectors sets only cost about $150, so could be a very worthy investment if it works as I imagine it could.
  Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2000, 10:18   #6
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

*

[This message has been edited by SkyPup (edited July 27, 2000).]
  Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2000, 10:39   #7
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

That's a cool animation ... of a GDI (gasoline direct injection) engine! NEAT!!

I suspect that the injection pumps with different part numbers have a different shape to the cam that moves the plunger back and forth, they might have a longer maximum effective stroke (or inject a greater amount of fuel over the same number of crankshaft degrees of rotation) as a result, but this is purely speculation ...

Brian
GoFaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2000, 02:20   #8
christi
Veteran Member
 
christi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Ruislip, Middlesex, UK
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

SkyPup, I will check the part numbers later on, I promise.

It might be a day or two..

------------------
1996 Passat Tdi estate (wagon (variant))
See my Peugeot / Passat site
christi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2000, 05:07   #9
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Thanks Christi, it sure takes alot of time to try to learn anything about these engines over here on this side of the Atlantic, I really appreciate your assistance. Now if I only had a password to the BOSCH TDI database with all this information so I could log on and print it all out!!!

This Site has the VW TDI CD-ROM containing everything and anything we wish to know and yearn to learn, somehow somwone has got to send me a copy!!!!!

http://www.boschservice.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2000, 05:16   #10
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information


CD-D: Your information foundation for diesel assemblies and replacement parts.

Demand for ever-higher levels of metering precision is reflected in increasing complicated diesel injection systems. The levels of technical expertise needed to repair and service these systems are rising at the same time. CD-D from Bosch provides precise information for professionals, extending from data on individual spares to exploded illustrations showing diesel equipment assemblies. This CD also contains the ESI installation program, so operations that focus on diesel service can use it without loading CD-A.

CD-D: Comprehensive component coverage with exploded drawings

CD-D from Bosch lets you keep accurate tabs on the right replacement parts for Bosch diesel assemblies. Exploded drawings are often vital for identifying spares. This CD provides them - a simple click calls up clear and concise displays with assembly group assignments and a comprehensive listing of spare parts (with over 35,000 entries) along with order numbers. Extensive comparisons let you identify diesel assemblies based on their components.

  Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2000, 05:18   #11
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

WHERE THE HELLO CAN I GET THIS CD?????????



CD-W: The diesel specialist's test spec. program.

CD-W from Bosch gives you test specifications for approximately 7,000 in-line pump combinations, with 10-digit Bosch order numbers, along with roughly 500 distributor-type pumps. This comprehensive service tool compliments CD-D (basic information for diesel assemblies) while also relying on it as its operating platform. To profit from CD-W's full range of features you will need Windows '95 and a 586 processor (e.g., Pentium).



CD-W: Test specifications and more for diesel assemblies

With CD-W you get the display you need at the click of a mouse. The on-screen data include portrayal and assessment of the test results, comparing them with specifications and also highlighting out-of-tolerance results in red. The program can also process test data by calculating averages and scatter ranges where required. All data are clearly correlated to facilitate comparisons, while deviations and tolerance violations are specially marked. When presented to your customers this test protocol will document your firm's high level of technical and professional competence in the area of diesel ancillaries.

  Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2000, 09:25   #12
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Christi, I was able to get this data off the German Robert Bosch site. It is for a GOLFIV model 1.9L TDI engine, one is the 90HP ALH exactly as what we have here in the US, and the other is for the 110HP AHF as what you have in Europe. You will note, there ARE different parts numbers for the injectors and springs! You will also note the Bosch VE VP 37 Fuel Injection Pump is IDENTICAL ! The only difference is the manual tranny pump uses a 10mm plunger whilst the auto tranny has an 11 mm.

Please check this info out on your end and see if this is what you conclude. If so, I can purchase a set of 110HP injector overseas and install them on my US spec TDI !


VW (VOLKSWAGEN) Golf IV 1.90 Liter 66KW (90HP); Limousine; Motor: ALH

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) 0432193732
Nozzle change not possible in nozzle-holder assembly with needle motion sensor

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) w. NBF 0432193734

Distributor-type fuel-lnJ pump WE 4/10 E 2075 R 700) 0460404977 For vehicles with manually shifted transmission

Distributor-type fuel-inj pump (VE4/1 1 E2075R712-1) 0460414989 For vehicles with automatic transmission
---------------------------------------------

VW (VOLKSWAGEN) Golf IV 1.90 Liter 81 KW (110HP); Limousine; Motor AHF

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) w. NBF 0432193744

Nozzle-and-holder assembly (2 springs) 0432193746 Nozzle change not possible in nozzleholder assembly with needle motion sensor

Distributor-type fuel-lnJ pump WE 4/10 E 2075 R 700) 0460404977 For vehicles with manually shifted transmission

Distributor-type fuel-inj pump (VE4/1 1 E2075R712-1) 0460414989
For vehicles with automatic transmission


  Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2000, 15:16   #13
Electron Man
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Skypup,

If I'm not mistaken, the AHF (110HP) motor has 20:1 compression, while the ALH (90HP) motor has 19.5:1 compression.

Probably won't make much difference though; I'd suspect that less than 10% of the additional 20HP and ??lbft of torque could be attributed to the higher compression.

Source: wetterauer.de

Keep up the R&D!

[This message has been edited by Electron Man (edited July 27, 2000).]
Electron Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 28th, 2000, 00:07   #14
diesel des
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Belfast,NI
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Election Man, I believe the 90 and 110 are both the came CR of 19.5:1. I think its a mistake on the web site. A higher output turbo diesel generaly has a LOWER CR. Eg the VW race tdi ran 18.5:1. My tweeked TDI now has a CR of 18.7:1.

Skypup, to sum up, what exactly do you thing the diffrence in the injectors are? Is it that the higher output versions have a lower injection pressure? I suppose this would be one of the reasons that they are dirtier engines. They do hace the same holes though?

Going by the info you gave, it may be possable to convert 3 of the 90 injectors to 110 with a diffrent nozzle and spring, but you need to buy a number 3 injecter due to the lift sensor.

I can give you a contact for the 110 injectors. It is the same place i got my injectors and parts car. Email me if interested.

[This message has been edited by diesel des (edited July 28, 2000).]
diesel des is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 28th, 2000, 09:41   #15
SkyPup
Guest
 
Default Re: More TDI Fuel Injector Information

Diesel Des, it appears that the only difference is the shim thickness for the springs to increase injection quantity, the opening pressure does not appear to have anything to do with fuel quantity and is mostly for emissions purposes. To date, this is the only reasonable theory left, however it does seem to hit a dead end as there is absolutely NO WAY you can change out three injectors and leave the #3 signal injector alone, it would unbalance the engine.

One thing is apparent to me however, the 90HP ALH & 110HP AHF both have the same displacement, same fuel injection pump, same turbocharger, and same MAF sensor. IMHO, only the ECU fuel maps and injector shiims are different. I should be able to add 20HP with a set of these injectors.

I'll talk to you next week via email after I do some more research and hear back from Christi about what he thinks. I'll also check into the turbo questions you asked too.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2014
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2013, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18385 seconds with 9 queries
[Output: 113.11 Kb. compressed to 93.83 Kb. by saving 19.27 Kb. (17.04%)]