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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old November 29th, 2005, 21:45   #1
johnstermartin
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Fuel Economy: 36-46
Default 70/30 Diesel

I recently filled up at what I think was a Citgo with a 70/30 blend. Does anyone know what it is? It was pretty inexpensive but I have noticed quite a decrease in mileage--from 42 average to 36.
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Old November 29th, 2005, 21:58   #2
tadc
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Probably 30% #1 and 70% #2 diesel. #1 has less BTU content so less MPG. It also keeps your fuel from gelling.

I've heard that different brands do different stuff to prevent gelling.. adding #1 diesel is the old school way. Modern fuel antigel additives is the modern way, but perhaps more expensive.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 05:48   #3
b100koczur
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Location: Duluth Minnesota
Fuel Economy: 58.9 max, 51 ave, 44.6 min
Default winter bio diesel blend "experimenting"

I drive a snowplow in Duluth and have experience with geling diesel. Winter blend diesels mix #1 and #2 in different ratios to provide a protection level against geling. Trust me, you don't want to get caught with the wrong fuel. It'll make itself known only on the coldest days. At work, in my plow, I'll run straight #1 when I know it'll be arround or below zero. It may be over cautious. The difference between how I fuel my snowplow and my TDI are important. I'll use nearly an entire tank of fuel during a snowstorm in my plow. My TDI may not need a filling for a couple weeks, which means the fuel in my tank is what I'll be stuck with if we get a cold snap. Even if I've got straight #2 in the tank and the temp dips, my fuel line may not get added anti gel in time.

I've been experimenting with biodiesel from our local co-op using jars and my freezer (move over vennison). I've found a difference between cloud point and gel point. When a fuel clouds it remains useable, but may contain small solids to plug your fuel filter. A mix of 20% bio and 80% #2 does fine down to about 15, but below that it starts to get lumpy. I've found that once lumpy, adding petrol diesel to bio is a slow process. Even with agitation (simulating driving) the lumps may break up, but only to make smaller solids. The experiments I've done with #1 fair a little better, but adding bio seems quite risky. I'd love to hear from someone who has explored this more than I have. I haven't tried any anti gel additives.

Untill I can look into it more, I'll take the power and mililage hit to make sure I can make it to work when the call comes. I'll continue to run #1 or winter blend diesel when we are looking at sub-zero temps.

I'd love to hear some first hand experinces from others.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 07:51   #4
overbite
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Here is a report from Hennipen (sp) co where they ran B20 for a couple of winters in some plows. I know that it is not nearly as cold in MSP as it is in Duluth but it might give you some insite.

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ams/biodieselfinal.pdf

Also lots of good info on biodiesel in MN from MDA at this site

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/M...d=biodiesel%20

Hope that helps.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 11:33   #5
b100koczur
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Thanks for the link. It makes me want to get some anti gel for my own little experiments.
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Old November 30th, 2005, 17:04   #6
johnstermartin
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Default Thanks for all the info!

This is my first post and I am simply amazed by all the help within 24 hours! Thanks to you all for the information. I didn't think it was bio so it makes sense that it's a #1/#2 blend. Thanks tadc!
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Old November 30th, 2005, 18:20   #7
BKmetz
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A 30/70 winter blend is quite in line for Minnesota. To give you a better idea of how winter blending works, there is a winter pour point table in the TDI FAQ.

http://tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-10.html
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Old December 1st, 2005, 05:38   #8
b100koczur
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Post Anti gel and bio.

I tried 50 bio and 50 #2 at 0f last night. It clouded and waxed. I added a few drops of PS (white container anti gel) The fuel kept it's color, but became very runny and remained fluid this morning when I opened the freezer.
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Old December 1st, 2005, 06:08   #9
63Ragtop
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In Minnesota, find a station that sells Arctic Diesel. Many stations do. Its a custom fuel with high cetane for winter starting and is good to at least -30F. No need to worry about blend ratios. Mileage drop maybe 2mpg.
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Old December 1st, 2005, 07:08   #10
Lug_Nut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b100koczur
My TDI may not need a filling for a couple weeks, which means the fuel in my tank is what I'll be stuck with if we get a cold snap.
I've been experimenting with biodiesel from our local co-op using jars and my freezer (move over vennison). A mix of 20% bio and 80% #2 does fine down to about 15, but below that it starts to get lumpy.
I'd love to hear some first hand experiences from others.
I leave my TDI's tank nearer to empty than full during the winter. That allows me to use less petro to pollute...sorry, DI-lute, the biodiesel in the tank when a few days of really cold weather is forcast.
My own freezer tests, using fuel from a different biodiesel source than you, indicate that the B100 from my present supplier is fine down to 32F without additives or petro. B33 (with the other 2/3 untreated summer D2 petro) clouds, but isn't lumpy, down to zeroF. I've extrapolated linearly to guess where a B25, B50, B66, B75 and B80 blend would begin to cause gel problems for me. I watch the weather and blend 5 or 6 gallons at a time, about two day's worth, while leaving about a 10F cushion between the forcasted overnight low and my best guesstimate of some blend ratio's gel point.
Don't let my temperature figures dictate what you use. You are correct to do your own tests with your own fuel. Each batch of biodiesel will have slightly different cold characteristics. My last year's supplier of another manufacturer's B100 biodiesel product was suitable to about 5 colder than this year's supplier's fuel, but my current cost is about $1 per gallon lower than if I were still using last year's source. Five degrees may not seem like much, but it is when stranded on the side of the road at 5AM with plugged fuel lines. I've decided to not repeat my past gel incidents.
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Old December 2nd, 2005, 06:12   #11
naturist
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LugNut, this is just my opinion, but I think you may be more at risk than you need to be by that tactic. YMMV of course, but I'd be very leery of keeping an empty tank around during snowy/wet weather for fear that condensation would lead to water/ice problems.

Granted here in Virginia I have much less of a cold problem than you do, and perhaps more of a condensation problem, still, I'd like to suggest that keeping the tank full of whatever blend you need to weather the worst possible cold snap is a much better strategy.
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