unchipped and .205's

unchipped and .205\'s

(from SVT's no-turbo thread, I didn't want to hijack it)

Ok, as the topic states why would this be a bad thing? I have over 4k miles with the above setup, most miles were high-speed and lasting for at least 30 minutes... A -VNT adjustment was completed 1k miles ago.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Maybe you need more air to keep the egt's at bay during high load periods. You are a candidate for an egt gauge.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

I had the same thing for longer but I ran a + 1 vnt. The difference between the 110 HP and the 90 HP stock is the VNT is set differently and of course the .205s. Stock boost is only up 1 PSI and if you have a gauge you will see 1/2 to full throttle boost is up much more than that at WOT (.205s with a stock chip vs what a bone stock 110 would be = stock 90 HP + 1 PSI).

IMO, Valois is correct in that a more aggresive low speed, part throttle boost map is needed to prevent soot. I'm just not sure if that can be fixed with a +1 VNT tweak. Maybe the Mickey diode mod (1.5 PSI) a +1 VNT tweak and a dawns device on the surge surpresion? Total cost $60.00. How's that? All the boost control that you ever need.

[ November 06, 2002, 16:01: Message edited by: Oldman ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Foot and Oldman are right, that is not the way to go without toasting a piston or the turbo.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Ted, aren't you running .205s without chip or increased boost? How many miles, and have you had any problems? Do you have an EGT gauge?

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

No EGT but no problems either!

Ted

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

30,000 miles on this car, approx 10,000 on the last one...

Ted

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

oh, well that settles it, Ted says it's perfectly safe to do it, he had all of 10,000 miles on his ride without problems, so don't worry about it.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Yes! If you value my opinion so much as me what I think of chip-tuning!

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Why did you ditch the other car?

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Actually never mind...

I got good fabric (non-velour) seats, crank windows, curtain bags on this car -- it's great!

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Sounds like all very logical and clearly defined reasons for ditching a $20,000 car that you paid over $1000 for the diesel engine option and which depreciated by at least 2 grand when you drove it off the lot. what kind of mileage did you have on your first one? THat lint on the seats can be soooo agravating.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

You need the chip to get the performance.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Originally posted by Ted_Grozier:
No EGT but no problems either!

Ted

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ted, please post your dyno. I am really interested at the tremendous power you have stated is availible.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

You guys are right. It is all in my head. I have no dyno, I have no chip, I have no intake, I have no machismo and I certainly have no speedy hopped up high-performance TDI!

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

No chip, 0.216 injectors, EGR connected but adapted to minimum, boost control modded to achieve 17 psi max boost pressure with no spikes above that. Injection timing at the top of the graph (critical point being made here). Did this 42,000 km ago. Keep in mind that I tow a trailer with this rig, probably 6000 km of that was with the trailer behind. No EGT gauge (although I probably should have one). Runs like a scalded cat, just like it did from day one. No smoke, no hiccups, no hassles, and I don't expect any issues until stuff starts WEARING out from normal use (282,000 km total on it now).

I know of an A4 Jetta automatic that has stock chip, my old 0.184 injectors, EGR connected but adapted. Injection timing is at the top of the graph - came like that from the factory. I don't anticipate any problems.

I don't anticipate any problems with Ted's setup either (5-speed, 0.205 injectors, stock chip, EGR adapted).

Shorter injection duration (but bigger injectors for same total fuel delivery, compared to chip and stock injectors) tends towards lower exhaust temperature. Reduced boost pressure (due to stock chip) tends towards higher exhaust temperature. Neither effect is very large. WRONG INJECTION TIMING tends towards high exhaust temperature BIG TIME.

All of this is ONLY an issue if the vehicle is being driven foot-to-the-floor. I CAN'T drive mine foot-to-the-floor for any length of time or I'd be in jail. (Trailer towing requires caution, though. I take it easy with that.)

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

You know what else you don't have 21+psi boost spikes at less than 2000 rpm that "can" cause surge...and we all know what that can lead to

But then again if you installed the Wett chip you would not have to worry about the boost spikes since under all conditions the Wett chip never goes above 19psi in their high power level chip. Its easy to find out do some data logging along with a boost gage and see for yourself.

The .205's alone are the safest alternative since that is how the TDI 110 in Europe comes, Whats up with that anyway you don't hear about them burning up turbos or running into surge Guess the chip tuner (VW) knew what they were doing.

The best part is you don't need to get a chip to get great power. Options like injectors, Injectors and a VASB, Pump injectors and VASB etc all amount to great power.

Again the best options are the various power level Wett chips, I can't wait for the data logs to get posted so people can see for themselves just how badly the Up chips compares to the refined boost control of the Wett chip. This of course is all based on simple data logging that anyone can do with a VAG-COM or better yet a super fast pressure sensor that can capture readings at 400 counts per second...

DB

[ November 07, 2002, 14:08: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Originally posted by Drivbiwire:


The best part is you don't need to get a chip to get great power. Options like injectors, Injectors and a VASB, Pump injectors and VASB etc all amount to great power.

DB

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's see your dynos pete...

[ November 07, 2002, 13:56: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

I would not call the turbo blown, making a weird noise yes, blown no.

As far as the data logs I am not the one working on them. A few others are doing all the data crunching and preparing it for everyone to see. Once its out people can draw their own conclusions based on the "Facts".

I'll make sure I get a TIT installed when the .205's go in. I'll do some logs with the stock chip and the wett chip and the Up chip. Then we can have something to talk about

By the way the UP chip is(was) surging up here like a SOB as low as 1500 rpm, that is not gonna cut it in my book now that I live and drive in the mountains.

DB

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

the Up program does not even change the stock programing below 1800 rpm.

[ November 07, 2002, 13:55: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Matter of fact, injectors alone will NOT result in the boost spikes that are common with the Upsolute chip. Translated, better for the turbo and the cars longevity.

Higher boost spike with the Upsolute chip also translates into higher back pressure on the turbo, again not exactly a good thing.

I do believe the topic is about power modifications without needing a chip all the suggestions above are proven and safe (within a reasonable expectation) for your average TDI owner.

DB

[ November 07, 2002, 13:53: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

The rules:

No flaming of other members to incite or perpetuate a conflict or argument. ANY personal attacks or name calling will get you banned.

[ November 07, 2002, 13:53: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

p.s. Fat injectors, by themselves, will raise EGTs way up high. That's not a good thing. You need air to go with the fuel.

The three most important things are airflow, airflow and airflow. Followed by airflow. In that order.

Do a muffler-ectomy. Get a Viper. Put a diode in your MAP return line to bump up the boost and keep it there.

Better yet: Get an UPsolute chip. And a Viper. And a muffler-ectomy.

p.p.s. No chip "requires" a negative VNT adjustment. That is absurd. I personally recommend it at high altitudes, whether you have a chip or not. Too many VNT-15 turbos (and one KKK that I can thing of ) are failing, regardless of "chipping". At low altitudes, failures are extremely rare and not worth worrying about.

[ November 07, 2002, 13:50: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Okay, first of all, EGT is only an issue at all if you are racing up a mountain or towing.

But given that, you experts tell me which is better, EGT-wise:

a.) 110 hp well under the smoke limit on good fuel, stock injection window.

b.) 115 hp at the edge of the smoke limit on good fuel, extended injection window.

c.) 120 hp on smoke limit on good fuel, extended injection window.

No, I don't have a pyrometer. But who among you have taken EGT data on the stock chip/large injector setup??

Did you not see the part of the VW TDI-R paper that said, in essense, "we looked at the popular chip-tuning options and found that they lengthened the injection window ... and raised EGTs"??

Do you really think that for a given power output, with a stock injection window, under the smoke limit, that increasing boost will lower EGTs? (I'm talking turbo inlet temp, not the irrelevant downpipe measurement.)

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Well here is my take on it all.

More fuel at the wrong time will kill the EGTs

If you timing is in the middle of the graph or towards the bottom and you JUST put big injectors in - yeah you'll LIKELY have problems.

If your timing is advanced you will get a more complete combustion of the fuel adn make more power and should see lower EGTs.

In my opinion, you are MUCH better off upgrading to bigger injectors FIRST if you are not ready to spend the money on a Wett chip. Or going to bigger injectors and modifying the system slightly to get a bit more air in there to reduce smoke.

if you do it properly (unchipped with 205s) you will not have a problem. But then of course there are a thousand or so TDIs running the upsolute chip with no problems thats what - 10% of the forum? and 1% of total cars in N.A. - pretty small sample size to make claims of reliability. But then that isn't here or there. just vauge numbers tossed up without support of facts statistics or data - numbers i'm only reporting as reported by the leader of the pyramid scheme called Upsolute. Just like amsoil not that that is a bad thing. I like amsoil. I like their dealers. They have a great product. I even use a 0W-30 oil in my car!

Yikes . . . maybe I better check something else. But I can't explain the surge that I see from the data logs other than from the chip.

But of course- what am I? just a scientist that likes to take pictures of really really small things like injectors.

And yes I still believe - injectors should have a replacement interval - esp the nozzles. call it 100, 200 or what ever. But they should be replaced - ESP in North America. The fuel here is crap - injectors wear out. They are a nice rare alloy but it ain't indestructible.

If you have problems with my conclusions or opinions valois, stop calling me a lemming and provide information (other than your opinion) that proves me wrong.

[ November 07, 2002, 14:06: Message edited by: TDI Believer ]

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

Originally posted by Ted_Grozier:
Did you not see the part of the VW TDI-R paper that said, in essense, "we looked at the popular chip-tuning options and found that they lengthened the injection window ... and raised EGTs"??

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is the part i'm basing and a few others are basing their opinions on. I keep forgeting to bring it up. the "window" of injection.

The only way to get more fuel in there if you don't make the nozzles bigger is to increase the time you are injecting fuel.

Seems pretty elementary. But it is bad. Teh faster and shorter you can get the fuel in there the better. And the more precision you have as to when combustion takes place. But then we all undersand this concept right?

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

You have got to be kidding. More information, dynos, vag com logs, etc.. have been released on this site concerning the Upsolute chipt han any other, if you are in the dark about something it's the affect of other methods of tuning on your car, I know of two who have destroyed turbos going the .205 route alone. The one in Canada, I think his user name was ding, toasted his turbo within a week or two. Garrett reported another. The topic of this thread was running these as standalone. Increases of app. 20 hp by fueling alone are riding the edge of increased EGT's when boost is not increased, add a tuning box, any tuning box to .205 injectors and you are asking for major trouble. As far as Upsolute being Cheap in comparison to the LUXURY programs, pricing does not have a damn thing to do with it. I decided not to gouge the tdi club when I introduced this product, Wett has since dropped their price. I hope everyone realizes Pete's motivation by this point. I hope they also realize that he has never backed up any of his claims be it with AMsoil series 3000 , air filters , not his current ranting on Upsolute chips with any solid information. He just forgets about it convieniently after the damage is done. Upsolute is not exclusive to the TDI market, we tune 1.8T's Audi's, Volvos, Mercedes Benz, and Porsche. In all the model lines we have yet to have anyone lose a turbo, there have been 4 or 5 instances where this has occured with TDI's running our software with VNT turbos, most at altitude, I can think of at least 3 cars that have lost turbos in TDI's running Wett chips, and even more stock cars at altitude.

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

So if 205 injectors alone destroy turbos (must be since you know of two cases) then are you saying that tuning boxes alone destroy turbos?

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

a defense - wow - still a bit of name calling but not a bad defense. <shocked>

But you still refuse to present the data? no? you say it is there . . . well

yes I am being excessivly argumentative. I appologize. I'm trying somehow for you to come up with data like a certain lubrication guy can that aleviates my fears about the programming in teh software in my car. I like it but I'm concerned. Concerned enough not to reccomend it over other options out there. My take on the situation is that even with all teh massive data out there that people have done independently - there is still questions - so what if DBW raises them. Is it bad to have questions raised?

Failing to answer them seems an admission to guilt. Or am I missing something?

Re: unchipped and .205\'s

"In my (worthless according to valois) opinion, you are MUCH better off upgrading to bigger injectors FIRST if you are not ready to spend the money on a Wett chip. Or going to bigger injectors and modifying the system slightly to get a bit more air in there to reduce smoke.

if you do it properly (unchipped with 205s) you will not have a problem."

Well-if I understand this right-the 110 TDI engine is IDENTICAL to our 90 except for the larger injectors, different oil cooler, and different programming of ECU. IF that is correct then it would stand to reason (seems to me) that us going to larger injectors FIRST would be the safest. If it is safer to get more HP/Torque by chipping (over larger injectors) then why didn't VW do it that way??? They could have changed the programming of the ECU to make it similar to chipping-couldn't they have (to get the extra 20 hp)???? If so-WHY did they go with larger injectors??? Seems to me that the larger injectors are less risky than chipping-and that previously (before we could just get the "nozzles) chipping was the preferred method mostly driven by COST. A new set of 205 injectors-sourced from Europe used to be like 700 bucks or more. That made the cost/benefit argue for the chipping. Now with nozzles available for $160-(thanks to Charlie) AND with potentially the fact that larger injectors is safer-the cost/ benefit is STONGLY toward the injectors IMHO........my 2 cents............

[ November 07, 2002, 08:17: Message edited by: michTDI ]