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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

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Old September 21st, 2005, 12:02   #1
nascartdi
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Default Alternative Fuels

I'm just wondering why alternative fuels really haven't jumped into the forefront of fuel prices recently. A lot of the GTL fuel papers I've read indicated viability at the $25-30 dollar a barrel crude oil prices. Seems to me that GTL diesel or a GTL/Bio blend being offered at the local WaWa for $1.59/gal would be a real incentive. I suspect there would be a lot of screaming at the auto industry if alternative diesel could be made at that price. It would also seem States with large NG deposits would be looking at GTL like Alaska does its oil. Maybe it just takes more time, but it sure looks like the opportunity is there for alternative fuels to make a big impact on the market. Maybe I should be working on my business plan rather than typing here.
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Old September 21st, 2005, 12:30   #2
Lug_Nut
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

Some fuels are considered to be alternative for a reason. There is frequently one or more impediments to preventing that fuel from becoming a fuel of choice rather than an alternative to the fuel of choice. Those impediments may be shelf life, cost, availability, toxicity, past history, whatever. The total of the reasons to not use one fuel over another are what relegates one to "alternative" status. It's only when there is some change to the impediments of the fuel of choice, as the recent price rise has been for liquid fossil fuels, that the alternatives to that fuel of choice may become the new choice. A high price for petrodiesel may make the cold temperature limitations and availability issues of biodiesel seem less important.
Will the same price parity still exist in two years when your business plan is about to be implemented? That longer term insecurity of profitability has stymied many that are looking to biofuels as a source of income.
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Old September 21st, 2005, 16:37   #3
Powder Hound
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Default Alternative Fuels

For us of the unwashed masses, what's GTL?
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Old September 21st, 2005, 17:11   #4
BKmetz
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Default Alternative Fuels

GTL: Gas To Liquids. GTL info
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Old September 21st, 2005, 18:00   #5
BioDiesel
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

Alternative fuels are 'exploding' in Germany.
With diesel and gas at $6/gallon, virgin canola at $2.50/gallon is cheap enough to save a German trucker $10, up to $20,000 / year.

For one measure, here's Straight Vegetable Oil kit maker
Elsbett of Germany's web hits:
http://www.elsbett.com/usage

By artificially raising the price of fuel thy've created an enviroment for alternative fuels to thrive.
Check out the dozens of SVO fueling stations throughout Germany here:
http://www.biotanke.de/Verzeichnis/tanksstellen.html

Even the 'Bush's' are in on it
'Bush family' Veggie Oil
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Old September 23rd, 2005, 07:25   #6
nascartdi
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

What would really be cool is for Syntroleum corporation to miniaturize there FT fuel process so it could be housed in a home garage. Then you just plumb your NG line to the reactor, set a guage for how much fuel you want today and let it perk while at work. Get home and fill up.
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Old September 23rd, 2005, 11:43   #7
Lug_Nut
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

Natural gas is still a fossil fuel that adds to the carbon based greenhouse gasses contributing to global climate change. It may be "cleaner" than others, but it is not "greener" than many.
If you are considering alternatives, why not choose one that can be zero emission? Or at least can be carbon neutral?
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Old September 23rd, 2005, 12:59   #8
nascartdi
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

Cause zero emission is a big elephant and I only think in little bites. Near zero sulphur allows better diesel emissions controls. Probably easier marketing to general public than greener fuels. US has a lot of it, so foreign dependence could be less. What's wasted in flaring could power a lot of cars for a lot of years. Would be a good mix with biodiesel. Wouldn't think it is the end all, but it seems to me to be better than what we have now.
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Old September 23rd, 2005, 13:41   #9
mojogoes
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

Hi there guys this all sounds interesting do tell me more???
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Old September 23rd, 2005, 14:01   #10
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

So, are you saying that people won't buy a particular fuel simply because it IS more environmentally friendly ("green")? I'm actually ready to believe that. The average American idiot would rather pay $6/gal at the pump than be labelled a "tree hugger."
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Old September 23rd, 2005, 19:23   #11
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

" than be labelled a "tree hugger.""

Funny.
I wonder if gas co.'s can give out certificates of dead
Iraqies or Afghanies?

I can imagine it now....
"You lucky guy! Your's was from a wedding!!"
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Old September 26th, 2005, 07:50   #12
nascartdi
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

Quote:
So, are you saying that people won't buy a particular fuel simply because it IS more environmentally friendly ("green")? I'm actually ready to believe that. The average American idiot would rather pay $6/gal at the pump than be labelled a "tree hugger."
No, not at all. The fact about fuel is that is an expense for any buyer. Unless you make green fuels price competitive then they don't have a chance. Sure, there are lots of folks that will pay a bit more to be environmentally friendly, but most don't care - it is the retail price at the pump. But my point was that a lot of people will look at biofuels, GTL as quirky and not mainstream - unless the price point is in their favor. Which goes back to my original premise that the surge into the market share has to be on price point - not necessarily "environmental goodness." I think the average american would rather pay $1.50/gal biodiesel and be labelled a "tree hugger" rather than $2.59 for regular #2 diesel. And I also think it is going to have to be a significant price difference for diesel to make significant market share in the auto industry.
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Old September 27th, 2005, 05:55   #13
naturist
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

having had my own conversation with somebody laughing at my use of diesel that cost 10 cents a gallon more than gasoline (let's see, 10/280=3.6% . . . vs 30%-60% better mileage . . . I guess it all averages out, huh!?!?) I too think that only a significant price per gallon difference will actually register in the public consciousness.

I know I got a much bigger response to my last purchase of B100 at a buck a gallon LESS than gasoline at the time than I have ever gotten from 50 miles per gallon.
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Old September 27th, 2005, 07:15   #14
nascartdi
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

It really is all a Catch-22 right now. Not enough market for E-85 and Biodiesel because there really aren't enough cars on the road that can use those fuels to really help out. Retailers won't carry them because they can't turn a profit today or this week - it doesn't do them any good to have a pump. About the only incentive I can think of would be a National B-5 (or whatever mix is right) campaign tied to tax reductions that would help the heavy truck fleets now and perhaps lower costs in other sectors. Enough people see a significant price gap between regular gas and biodiesel will cause manufacturers to increase light diesel production. I just don't understand why the bean and corn growers haven't come up with a plan to increase the supply to reduce prices and lobbying states and feds for implementation. I'd like to see the big three lobby for deferment of diesel emissions for a year or 2 so they can increase their diesel options quicker (assuming ULSD/Bio).
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Old September 27th, 2005, 13:34   #15
kjmayberry
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Default Re: Alternative Fuels

How about that Elsbett one tank system? Will it affect engine life? And could I use very clean WVO with success?
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