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Old December 6th, 2010, 07:25   #76
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Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Sometimes you just need to forget CO2, look at the bigger picture and be a little creative. CAFE can be met by Dieselizing more existing models, bringing-in smaller models and Bluemotion variants already available in other markets.
I said CO2 because I was talking about European requirements, not US requirements.

(Then again, with that 120 g/km fleet limit, it'll probably have to be something along the lines of, "buy a new 911 Turbo, get a free Volkswagen L1!")
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Old December 6th, 2010, 07:52   #77
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Noted. You're correct. an e-UP and other EV models the Group will introduce in the coming years will help drive down the fleet numbers. Outlook in the EU for 2020 is 95 g/km fleet average CO2.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 15:47   #78
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This is something that I would consider in a heartbeat..! Apparently, Porsche is now considering a smaller SUV to be called the Cajin, and it will have a TDI option. Think Audi Q5, plus.

http://www.autolatest.com/en/news-de...0-tfsi-engines

I'll take mine with the TDI please.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 18:36   #79
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Originally Posted by BeetleGo View Post
This is something that I would consider in a heartbeat..! Apparently, Porsche is now considering a smaller SUV to be called the Cajin, and it will have a TDI option. Think Audi Q5, plus.

http://www.autolatest.com/en/news-de...0-tfsi-engines

I'll take mine with the TDI please.
Cute, overpriced, impractical personal toy. Perfect for the upper 5%. If it actually shows up as TDI (in our dreams), only the upper 5% will be able to spend there extended Bush tax cut on one. But most logical people would tel you that they'll expand business, and opt for hiring one of the rest of us (in our dreams).

Not jaded, just a realistic statement, that's all. Whatever happened to practical, useful, economical (OMG, not that!), affordable? So, who the heck are they going to sell it to in NA?
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Last edited by dubStrom; December 6th, 2010 at 18:41.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 04:00   #80
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And the other Porsches are any different!? Read the title of this thread.

I believe that Porsche will offer a TDI, because they already do in the Cayenne. And putting one in a smaller package sounds great!
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Old December 7th, 2010, 05:27   #81
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Subaru's Boxer diesel is very popular in Europe.
Journalists like it, apparently it's very good. However, people are not buying it in large quantities, because then you'd have to have a Subaru... which means you'll have to put up with a TINY dealer network.

To illustrate the issue, here's a table of new car sales by manufacturer and brand in Europe:

Where's Subaru? Right: "Others". And there's a lot of "Others"
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Old December 7th, 2010, 05:45   #82
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You have probably looked at it in much GREATER detail than I, but I had read in passing the Subaru diesel does not deliver good mpg numbers and in relation to its gassers even worst percentage wise. Bottom line is mpg would not be a factor for a (gasser) Suburu owner to switch.
To get some real data, I had a look at Subaru's spec sheet for the Impreza (I know, the American Impreza has a 2.5 gasser, but Europe doesn't get that for fuel economy reasons!)

So... the diesel and gasser both have 150hp, the diesel gets 1 second quicker to 100 kph (62 mph) than the gasser. It also gets 5.7 l/100km combined (41 mpg) instead of the gasser's 8.6 l/100km (27 mpg).
So maybe that wouldn't be significant enough for US Subaru drivers to make the switch, but I'd say that's a pretty huge margin.

To get a feed for the 5.7 l/100km figure compared to the rest of the market, a 2.0 TDI Golf 4motion is rated at 5.5 l/100km (43 mpg), so a little bit better. A front wheel drive Golf 2.0 TDI is rated at 4.7 l/100km (50 mpg).
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:13   #83
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Thanks for the data graphs. The funny thing is the Subaru TDI gets 52% better. Now for me, that would more than tip the scales in favor of the Suburu TDI. But @ the same time if I lived in Europe, I probably would have to rethink the ??? "why" of getting a Subaru @ all. Indeed even in the US markets, Subaru is more of a niche market/player.

As a personal note, I was amused the European market would not get the 2.5 L engine for economy reasons. In the US markets, it is considered an eco economy car here (@ 21 mpg) and has almost a (religious) cult following.

That being said, really in the US markets, the same can be said for the VW market share (2.5%).

The VW TDI. has actually done EXTREMELY well (09 TDI=25% or app 56,000 units). 2010 VW sales might end the year @ 41% TDI's !! (up 64% year over year!) The TDI gets app 68% better fuel mileage than the gasser turbo !! YET, TDI's (in volume and percentage terms) are an EXTREMELY hard sell.

SIDEBAR:

Diesels are 2% of the passenger car markets 5.088 (M/254.4 M). 75% are so called (not so light- 3/4 to 1 ton trucks)..., LIGHT trucks (3.816 M) . Let's put it this way if I was an equestrian and wanted to tow a 3 horse trailer and a bale or 4 of hay, tack and other equipment/s.... This leaves app 1.272 M vehicles or one half of one per cent diesel passenger cars. In the US markets, unfortunately VW dealer service is the stuff legends are made of. It would seem they are quite proud of that reputation !! ??

Last edited by ruking; December 7th, 2010 at 07:31.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:26   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruking View Post
Thanks for the data graphs. The funny thing is the Subaru TDI gets 52% better. Now for me, that would more than tip the scales in favor of the Suburu TDI. But @ the same time if I lived in Europe, I probably would have to rethink the ??? "why" of getting a Subaru @ all.
I actually considered an Impreza back in 2008, before they had the Boxer Diesel, because they had LPG powered versions of everything back then. But the combination of 70+ km trips to the dealer, low resale value and not needing AWD at all made me strike that one from the list quite early.
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That being said, really in the US markets the same can be said for the VW market share (2.5%) and the VW TDI.
I think Subaru would love having 2.5% in Europe - as you can see, Lexus (0.1%) is in there, Subaru is not. And Lexus has never turned a profit in Europe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruking View Post
The TDI gets app 68% better fuel mileage than the gasser turbo !!
America only gets the largest gasser turbo - which virtually nobody in Europe buys...
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:41   #85
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Originally Posted by German_1er_diesel View Post
I actually considered an Impreza back in 2008, before they had the Boxer Diesel, because they had LPG powered versions of everything back then. But the combination of 70+ km trips to the dealer, low resale value and not needing AWD at all made me strike that one from the list quite early.

I think Subaru would love having 2.5% in Europe - as you can see, Lexus (0.1%) is in there, Subaru is not. And Lexus has never turned a profit in Europe...

America only gets the largest gasser turbo - which virtually nobody in Europe buys...

Indeed most folks (US market) really don't get that the European's ship us their gas guzzlers. Why? Because they can ?? !! The regulators have given their blessings?

It is also amazing that the regulators do not allow the Euro fuel "misers" into the ...country !! ?? (US markets) Why?
Because they CAN !!!?? Because LESS fuel mileage is BETTER !!??

Sidebar: I only found this out after reading a very obscure/arcane thread in www.TDIclub.com. The 03 TDI 5 speed US (market version) got an EPA of 42/49 and posted 90 hp/155 # ft. (that was enough to sell me) Yet the European version had more power (100 hp/177# ft) and got 2 mpg BETTER !!??

Despite (side bar to the SIDEBAR) or maybe because of having a 6 speed manual and bigger fuel injectors (probably among other things.) It was also stated that it cost MORE money to make the VW US market compliant.

Last edited by ruking; December 7th, 2010 at 10:54.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:46   #86
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Indeed most folks (US market) really don't get that the European's ship us their gas guzzlers. Why? Because they can ?? !! It is also amazing that the regulators do not allow the Euro fuel "misers" into the ...country !! ?? (US markets) Why? Because the fuel mileage is BETTER !!??
Because everybody else also only sells gas guzzlers and customers apparently want something with more power than the average European to go... 65 on the highway?
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:55   #87
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Again an amazing anomoly !! (Again I have read in passing) The real European speed limits are 80/88 mph. Yet if European's meander along @ 100 mph, they'd better be in the SLOW lane eh?
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Old December 7th, 2010, 08:13   #88
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It depends... Scandinavians drive really, really slow. 65-70, very relaxed - because speeding there is EXPENSIVE.
Germans drive 20 kph over the speed limit all the time, I hear... and on speed-limit-free autobahns they consider 110-120 mph a nice, relaxing cruise speed.
Any gasser will guzzle at speeds like that, so nearly every car in the left lane will be a diesel.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 08:40   #89
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Porsche UP! perhaps?

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Old December 7th, 2010, 10:51   #90
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It depends... Scandinavians drive really, really slow. 65-70, very relaxed - because speeding there is EXPENSIVE.
Germans drive 20 kph over the speed limit all the time, I hear... and on speed-limit-free autobahns they consider 110-120 mph a nice, relaxing cruise speed.
Any gasser will guzzle at speeds like that, so nearly every car in the left lane will be a diesel.

It is quite easy with a brand new low end BMW or MB to find yourself stuck in the passing lane as a faster car magically appears and needs to brake while you complete your pass while floored at the governed 116 or 126 mph, even in the 135 mph models. It's also a ticketable offense and many German drivers will take your plate number and report you if you're abusing the lane in their eyes.

I've never been stuck passing too long, but I've had a number of cars appear out of nowhere at over 150 mph and way above. Stop at one of the rest stops off the autobahn between Frankfurt and the direction of Austria/Switzerland and you will see, and hear, engines screaming at levels little different than a race track in most every weather/light condition. Amazing.

I spent a decade on the continent living in four different countries and the most remarkable thing road wise was how dramatically different each nations driving habits were. German autobahn driving was the best, few other nations drivers would be disciplined enough to pull off unlimited speeds on those stretches (fewer and fewer sections are unlimited each year by the way).

The difference between most every car in America and much of high-speed Europe? In America our wrecking yards are filled with rusted body's and widely available, pullable engines. In Europe, the opposite, very little rust and tired motors. (part of that are the "safety inspections" seemingly written by new car dealers in which, as in the Netherlands, a little bit of surface rust near a headlight will fail you - and don't even think about perforation anywhere...)

Last edited by SuburbanTDI; December 7th, 2010 at 11:01.
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