Hard starting, (again?)

As we are heading into our winter season and cooler weather here in SW Oregon I thought that I would run this particular on going issue past you folks where the cooler it gets, the progressively slower the engine will turn over when cold starting. In warm weather, or after it warms up, there are no issues what so ever. Now, I am not talking about really cold here, maybe dropping down into the teens, but even at this temp the engine will sometimes just barely turn over and requires a jump. The battery, (94R, 790 CCA), is going on four years old and the shop says that it is working just fine.

Off the top of my head I am thinking possibly a weak starter itself, but are there some other potential issues I should be looking into?

Thanks,

Bill

Not sure if this is helpful or not, but I changed most of the relays above driver kick panel. I have found the glow plugs working better. Cranking speed I have not noticed any improvement . But it did start yesterday and today. -16C or about 0 for you.
Cheers

I'd be checking the grounds on the battery and starter before condemning the starter.

You could try pulling the starter, cleaning and relubing. I think there is even a how to thread around Here somewhere.

What exactly is 'fine' for a battery?

I had a parts store employee tell me that 12.2V is 'just fine' , while the battery just came off a running (and perfectly charging) car. Fully charged is 12.7V and he just wouldn't have it. It was a 2 year old battery too. Eventually after many tests and convincing they warrantied it out for me.

You can also check voltage drop when you crank as well. 2 person test.

I got it upgraded to an AGM battery with 850CCA / 1000 CA. It's amazing.

Which AGM did you buy? The CCA sounds OK but what are the AH's? I had a little trouble with an AGM a while back on a cold snap we had. I had an Optima Red. Never again!

OK, the consensus appears to lead towards the battery, (not surprised), so we will be stopping by the local VW dealer this time and picking one up instead of buying generic from a retail outlet.

Thanks folks,

Bill

There's zero need to guess on the state of a battery if you can load test it.

With regards to cranking speed and temperature fluctuation, it really only comes down to oil and batteries. Oil only minorly so (if using proper oil): but if it gets REALLY cold then the affects are bigger. Batteries' capacities (capabilities?) drop as ambient temperatures drop; and, keep in mind that there's the extra (big) draw from GPs, so kind of a double whammy happening: should be obvious now how important a good battery is for cold-weather starting!

If I were operating one of these cars in a cold environment I'd have a block heater.

When I did the engine swap into the gasser chassis I figured it was time for a starter refresh as the old original one had the post engagement squeal ever since I had owned it (165-215k miles). Took the old OEM one over to my friend who rebuilds starters/alternators for the work. Upon inspection he said it was pretty well cooked-having been very hot and signs of failing armature wiring. New armature and drive parts/bearings even with free labor would be more than a new one. As an option he recommended an new (not rebuilt) aftermarket version which I at first declined, but he said he had very good feedback on this brand. Don't know much about how the lifespan of it will play out, but the cranking speed and starting of the engine is much better than it was previously. Very noticeable difference being everything else being the same. Not sure what brand/source the starter is. I'm sure I still have the old one in the new box somewhere.

UhOh said:

There's zero need to guess on the state of a battery if you can load test it.

With regards to cranking speed and temperature fluctuation, it really only comes down to oil and batteries. Oil only minorly so (if using proper oil): but if it gets REALLY cold then the affects are bigger. Batteries' capacities (capabilities?) drop as ambient temperatures drop; and, keep in mind that there's the extra (big) draw from GPs, so kind of a double whammy happening: should be obvious now how important a good battery is for cold-weather starting!

If I were operating one of these cars in a cold environment I'd have a block heater.

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The shop in which I purchased the battery checked it out and said it was fine, (that is where I am having my doubts.) The oil is Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck. Am I wrong in considering that temps in the high teens/low 20's shouldn't be a problem?
Bill

wjfyfe said:

The shop in which I purchased the battery checked it out and said it was fine, (that is where I am having my doubts.) The oil is Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck. Am I wrong in considering that temps in the high teens/low 20's shouldn't be a problem?
Bill

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Correct.
Mine started at 6 degrees F below 0 (US) but I did have to crank it over 3 times.
If its cranking slow that could be the starter or a bad connection / cable.
I would do a voltage drop test.
Measure the voltage from the battery + post (not the clamp) to the + stud on the starter (not the terminal)
Have someone crank the car. I would not want to see more then a few tenths of volt reading.
Do the same for the negative post to the case of the starter.
There's also a wire from the other post on the starter that goes into the starter.
It corrodes over time and does not conduct enough power through to starter.
Bad bushings in the starter could also cause a drag slowing it down.
Can (did) the battery shop test the cranking amps?

ffemtp said:

Which AGM did you buy? The CCA sounds OK but what are the AH's? I had a little trouble with an AGM a while back on a cold snap we had. I had an Optima Red. Never again!

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It's an Advance Auto Parts "Autocraft Platinum" AGM battery. Which is either made by Johnson Controls or EnerSys batteries. Not sure which, will have to look on battery itself for clues.
It's 80Ah, and can start the car without even cutting power to the radio playing loud music. That alone impressed me.

They tend to be quite expensive, but since I was able to claim warranty replacement with them, I will stick with it until the next need comes around.

The 80AH battery (assuming it is a 94R) is the correct one. The Optima Red had a 55AH rating, so it could not handle the needs when the temp dropped. It would be fine for a gasser, but not a diesel. It was in the car when I bought it, and I was suspect of it at the time. Replaced it with a 94R AGM and all was fine.

I tend to be a bit more proactive with maintenance, so I replaced the starter when the car got to 150K miles. I figure it has done a bit of work by then so I picked up a reman from Napa. Was about $100 on sale. I'd rather do it on my terms (read warm weather) rather than wait until the car decides it is time!

I went to the local VW dealer, had them look up our VIN for a battery and they tried to sell me one of only 340 CCA, I didn't buy it so am now looking for a good aftermarket.............

Bill

Sears has them now, saw one there a few years ago.
Don't remember the price, wasn't what I would call inexpensive.

Just wanted to chime in here to share a similar experience I've had and maybe to solicit some advice from those more knowledgeable about starters than I am.
'03 Jetta currently with ~366k mi - for the past 150k mi or so, I've replaced my battery about every 3 yrs, due to slow cranking when the temps got below 35F or so. The first couple of replacements were VW batteries from the dealer. The last couple were Wally World brand. This drove me nuts because I would have the "dying" battery checked at Wally World and was told they were well within range. So I would go to work every day through the winter, running outside during lunch break on really cold days to run the car for a while to ensure it would start for my ride home. I would eventually spring for a new battery and all would be well for another 2 or 3 years.
A year ago, I had 2 different Wally Worlds check it out, both times they said it was fine. I decided to pull the starter to clean and inspect it. I was not able to disassemble/detach the bendix? part mounted to the starter, but was able to clean out and re-lube the gears a bit.
Same problem after re-installing. Removed it again, tried and failed again to completely disassemble it, and decided to give it a whack with a hammer before re-installing this time. Guess what? Started like a champ every day for the next year! Oh, and because I still had one of my old VW batteries laying around, I charged it up and it starts my car as well as the new battery!
Now, just in the last week since temps are below 40F again, it's back to slow starting.

Not sure if I have the same problem, or a truly tired battery this time, as I haven't looked into it yet.

Anyway, what did I do when I whacked the starter? Is this a symptom of a starter needing replacement, or is there some other fix that doesn't include the need for a hammer? Any good how-tos for complete disassembly of this starter in case I attempt this again?

I don't know if this is Bill's issue, but the description sounded just like what I've been going through.

As I mentioned earlier, many of these cars are well up in age and miles. Some haven't had great care/maintainence in the past, perhaps. When my starter was disassembled/inspected it was in bad shape. Been overheated and abused. Bought the car with a broken TB (at about 2x the replacement interval) so obviously wasn't taken care of to that point. MN winters, no coolant heater, never garaged, etc. Point is, a new starter will probably draw less amperage and spin the engine better than one with toasted brushes, bad dealings, worn drive, etc.

wdh009. really need to see what kind of amperage the starter is drawing. Obviously, when temps drop you're putting a lot more strain on the battery: battery capacity is reduced due to lower temps, and on top of this you have GP draw chiming in. A marginal battery might be able to get by prior to colder weather, but with colder weather it turns into a shrinking violet. You don't say what battery you now have in your car (older one or the newer one).

I recently bought a battery load tester (never had one before) and am planning on checking all my batteries.

I have an old clamp on amp meter that's fairly accurate.
Wasn't a lot of money.
You could test the current drawn cold & warm.
I've read others cleaned the starter bushings and it helped.
If a bushing is worn and the armature is dragging it needs to be replaced. Not hard or expensive.

Interesting article on the subject of batteries: http://corsair.flugmodellbau.de/files/elektron/BATFAQ.HTM

Bill

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=481865

Link for another post I made regarding a similar issue

Edit: I had a similar issue where I went through multiple batteries, glow plugs and fuel filters.
Finally my starter crapped out on me. The new model replacement as well as an adjustment on the gears that go to the starter motor resolved everything. The car cranks properly now, really fast and ignition is within 1-3 seconds tops. Cranking before took about 7-11 seconds.

I also had the wire running to the starter motor from the positive terminal fall off about 6 weeks after I had the starter changed.

Other things to note:
1. AGM batteries don't suffer the cold weather, invest in one
2. Use a battery brush, clean all your connections, apply dielectric grease and retighten
3. Lighter oils so 0w or 10w at the most.
4. Consider getting a block heater for yourself but at temps 34F and above, your car should crank without issue

Well, all of our connections were good and clean of corrosion, the battery only would show around 12.2 volts when supposedly fully charged so we just broke down and installed a new battery. Since, voltages have been maintaining back up to where they should be , the engine definitely turns over much better, so it appears that the battery has been the problem all along.

Another curiosity does come to mind now, how much battery is actually being utilized by the car when just sitting? How much of a voltage drop over a period of time would be considered normal?

Bill

Good question, since the computer is always on, memory for the radio is always on...there is a constant drain on the electrical system.

I have a 2005 jetta TDI BEW that I bought with 17,000 miles on it. It always cranked slowly in cold weather. I replace the battery since the car had low milage on it. It didn't help much. One day I pulled the starter off and found a brush hanging up. It's been 10 year and a couple batteries and never had a problem since.

I notice earlier in this thread that an auto parts person told you that the battery that just came off of a charge is OK at 12.2 volts. It should be at least 12.6 possible a couple tenth more.

I wouldn't go any lower on CCA's than 650 @ 0 degrees. The more CCA's you have the longer the life of the battery. Your battery will lose 50 to 75 CCA's a year until your car will no longer start. I have a battery tester that tells me how many CCA's are left in a battery. If a battery gets much below 400 CCA's you're flirting with a problem when it gets cold.

BTW I've been doing electrical trouble shooting on cars, trucks, diesel and gasoline for 50 years and it still takes a lot of time to figure things out.

Test the glow plugs

You probably have some glow plugs out, take the boots off very carefully(easy to crack the 4 enjoined boot longitudinally) and test with a multimeter.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=79819

Could also be a plugged fuel filter.

rrgrassi said:

Good question, since the computer is always on, memory for the radio is always on...there is a constant drain on the electrical system.

Click to expand...

Excellent question, I set out to find out that today. Just a regular electrical meter between the negative terminal of the battery and the negative lead from the car to have a proper bridge point. Please note: my vehicle is the ALH MK4 1999 Jetta but others should be similar.

1. Standby current was initially 0.21 Amps but quickly settled to 0.01 Amps and less, so the idea of 'Constant Battery Strain' is a little far fetched unless you leave something on.

2. Ignition ON - 5.78 Amps

3. Ignition ON & Daytime Lights ON - 14.86 Amps

Hope this gives some insights but as far as I know, keeping power on for the console for clock and odometer would likely be 7 watts tops. Feel free to test it out yourself of course, you shouldn't be getting power flowing much with everything turned off.

A quickie follow-up where when I initiated this thread our engine started balking on starting when the temps were only in the 30's. I ultimately decided to replace the battery, (EverStart MAXX-H7), in which we got to recently test having just returned from a trip to Montana where temps dropped down into the minus double digits. In preparation for this trip along with the already installed oil pan heater, I also threw in a battery charger and extension cord, but it was all for no need for the engine started just fine on it's own without any assistance. The regained trust and confidence in our TDI feels good!

Bill

Glad you got it resolved.
When mine had to be cranked over 3 times in single digits I decided not to use it when it got that cold.
Did a quick check, battery, starter speed, and glow plugs seemed to be working OK.