2003 Jetta Timing Belt change/ Fuel Timing Question

I have a 2003 Jetta TDI with 198K miles and no maintenance history. Reading this forum tells me I need to change the timing belt soon as I have no idea when it was ever changed. I'm pretty capable however I do not have access to VCDS at this point which brings on my question:

If the car seesm to run pretty well (this is my first TDI so I have no comparison) and I change the timing belt, do I need to adjust the fuel timing with the new belt? I realize that I would want to have this checked somewhat soon if nothing else to ensure efficiency however I'd rather not delay the belt change until I get VCDS and an understanding on how to use it.

Thoughts?

Thank you everyone!

Rob

more important than the VCDS is timing belt tools. The 'mark and pray' method is a terrible idea and has cost many well intentioned people many thousands of $$$ when something goes wrong.

Make a post in your regional section to see if someone would lend you tools and give you a hand with a VCDS. If not, 1 of the vendors rents t-belt tools (sorry, don't recall which one) and i'm sure there is something in your area who has a VCDS

http://pics3.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf
Done correctly, using the designed tools, the TB change procedure should land you "within spec" as far as injection timing goes. If not, you may get a CEL or a no start condition. If you follow the instructions and make sure the engine rotates over freely afterwards with no piston/valve contact issues, you at worst may end up with a engine that is a bit out of spec timing wise and would be OK to drive until you can graph the timing.
But, VCDS should be used to find out where it really did end up and if not optimum, adjusted to where you feel it should be. If you plan to own a TDI long term, you should plan on owning VCDS, IMHO.
I have bought most of my parts here:
http://metalmanparts.com/
The tool rental was great. Parts top quality and fast service from Dennis.

Thank you both. Good information. MetalManParts looks like a good resource. Not sure about their tool rental prices but I'll definitely check it out further. Thanks again!

You think $45 is too much for renting the tools needed for the job? WOW! I guess you will probably be asking about the Chinese VCDS cable next. The correct tools for the job go a long way towards doing it correctly. $45 over a 100k miles is next to nothing when you think about it.

Lightflyer1 said:

You think $45 is too much for renting the tools needed for the job? WOW! I guess you will probably be asking about the Chinese VCDS cable next. The correct tools for the job go a long way towards doing it correctly. $45 over a 100k miles is next to nothing when you think about it.

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I'm sorry flyer but your post is neither helpful nor is it necessary. If you read my original post I did not mention the need for necessary tools so you do not know if I would have a need to rent them or possibly have access to them myself. Zero dollars over 100k sounds better to me than $45. If you feel like throwing money away you cand send it to me.

I also have an 03' bought at 134K + was told by the PO that the timing belt was "just done".. I know (knew) better, but chose to be willfully ignorant and put it on my to-do list at 230k. Timing belt broke in my driveway at 213k and took out 4 valves, cam and lifters. (It was the original belt)

My recommendation if you are planning to keep the car for the duration.

1. Buy the VCDS, learning how to use it is nothing + instructions for setting your timing are already in most of the walkthroughs. You will get your money out of it over the life of the car.. Look for a cheaper USB KII on the marketplace forum here.. They can usually be had for between 100-200$ ( VCDS license is in the cable, you can just download the SW)
2. Rent or borrow the tools.. Another option is to make them yourself ( there are some good threads on here on how to do it.) Whatever you do, DO NOT DO THE BELT WITHOUT THEM!! This is not a good area to skip tyring to save $$
3. Do the belt ASAP just in case. Cheap insurance.. If you do what I did you will turn a $350 job into a $1400 job ( and that is assuming you do your own work, it will be even more if you have to pay someone else)

Thanks Yreka. I don't disagree. Unfortunately I'm looking at a $700 job for both timing belt kit, VCDS purchase and any ancillary cost I may run into. I've reviewed the belt and it "looks new". I relize that is not a real indication of time before failure however it's not oil/coolant soaked or frayed so I'm counting on it daily until I can get the parts and the time to do this. I'm not sure how long from the timing belt time to the VCDS access will be so I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into with the fuel timing.

Or you can pay 600-800 and have a shop do it and not worry about it for another 100k miles.

So far the lowest quote I recieved was $500 labor plus parts, which was 300 +/-. So that would be $800 and that would leave me less intimate knowledge of my engine and no VCDS. I agree I want VCDS myself. I may just bite the bullet and get it now...
My better half may not apprecaite that... but...

Okay sorry I'm new on here and yes a girlso iI don't know a lot and need help. I recently had a timing belt brake on my 99 jetta and my little brother replaced it for me in his shop class. I got the car back and it runs normal but takes quite a bit of cranking sometimes to get it started. Idk if this would have anything to do with it but now there is so much air in the fuel line and the car won't start period. When I say air I don't mean the bubbles I mean from the filter all the way to the motor is air. Can you guys maybe help me out? And please no jackass remarks.

If I were you, I would spend the $300 on TB parts and either make, borrow, or rent the $45 tools. Do the job, do it correctly with precise TDC alignment and the injection pump locked and your engine will start, run, and perform well. When you get the money, get yourself the VCDS cable and set the timing perfect to get optimum MPG and easy starting. And welcome to the wonderful world of TDi ownership!

slvinot said:

Okay sorry I'm new on here and yes a girlso iI don't know a lot and need help. I recently had a timing belt brake on my 99 jetta and my little brother replaced it for me in his shop class. I got the car back and it runs normal but takes quite a bit of cranking sometimes to get it started. Idk if this would have anything to do with it but now there is so much air in the fuel line and the car won't start period. When I say air I don't mean the bubbles I mean from the filter all the way to the motor is air. Can you guys maybe help me out? And please no jackass remarks.

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Be glad to help or answer your questions, but it's proper procedure to start your own thread rather than jump into someone else's. It just keeps things simpler as to responses.

mxracer291 said:

If I were you, I would spend the $300 on TB parts and either make, borrow, or rent the $45 tools. Do the job, do it correctly with precise TDC alignment and the injection pump locked and your engine will start, run, and perform well. When you get the money, get yourself the VCDS cable and set the timing perfect to get optimum MPG and easy starting. And welcome to the wonderful world of TDi ownership!

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X2.
The way the belt "looks" is no real indication of condition or of impending failure. Reason is that seldom does the belt actually fail on its own. The tensioner, WP, or a idler bearing goes out and ruins the belt. The tensioner failing was the reason I bought the 2003 with the broken belt and even on the 2003 1.8 (future donor chassis for the TDI swap) it was the WP that seized and took out the belt.
Most of the time there will be no warning.
Be warned.

Ratt said:

I'm sorry flyer but your post is neither helpful nor is it necessary. If you read my original post I did not mention the need for necessary tools so you do not know if I would have a need to rent them or possibly have access to them myself. Zero dollars over 100k sounds better to me than $45. If you feel like throwing money away you cand send it to me.

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Sorry you don't think it was helpful. You mentioned no experience with these engines and don't own or know about VCDS or the belt change procedures or timing. All these are important. A visual of the belt means absolutely nothing here. It isn't the belt that usually goes it is one of the other components that give out taking the belt and everything else with it. Renting the tools and getting a complete kit from one of our preferred vendors and a VCDS tool would run about:

VCDS KII-USB interface $250
Deluxe 100k kit $299 On sale
Tool rental $45

Total $600 + labor

Ross Tech and Dieselgeek

If you read the forums here you will find this is one thing you want to get right and complete. Sell the VCDS when done for $200 (it will sell fast) if you are really strapped for cash. Plenty have either not done this or did it incorrect and suffered. Another useful tidbit is don't ever buy parts from a seller named "Prothe". He goes by many, many other names as well. Read the forums here for his sad stories and many names and web sites. Good luck!

Thanks all for your assistance. I've read a lot of the horror stories on here about TB's failing (or other components taking them out). It wasnt something I realized before getting the car and not sure I would have made the same choice if I had known. On the other hand since I've aquired it I immediately made it my daily driver. This is how I work the bugs out of them is drive the sh*t out of them and start fixing everything I don't like and learn on the way. I must say, just cleaning out the snow screen and changing the fuel filter made quite a bit if difference in performance. Now I think I've been bitten. I've had MUCH faster cars and built much faster cars and motorcycles but I've never had one that as this fun to drive with this fuel economy. IF the TB goes before I have the kit in hand and time to fix it.. so be it... Im not going to stop driving it until I have everything necessary to perform the change. Until then I'll drive it as I have been and continue to learn about it. And enjoy it. I appreciate everyones input.
I've decided to get the VCDS and kits coming. I've been looking at Kits from www.metalmanparts.com and www.kermatdi.com. Does anyone have a suggestion as to which one would be the best choice? The Kerma kit is about 30 bucks cheaper I think...

Also I've not found VCDS under $299. Can someone supply links with part numbers if it is available cheaper?

THanks again!

I don't think there are any "deals" on genuine RossTech VCDS cables. Generic/counterfeit cables may not work for all functions such as the TDI timing graph and of course, get no tech support from the software developers who frequent the forum.
I finally had to bite the bullet and pay to upgrade my old serial port cable for a USB version last fall. Haven't used it a lot on my own fleet, but can finally get into the Buddys daughters Passat controllers to do some lock reprogramming and code reading/clearing.

Decent price for this complete kit:
http://www.metalmanparts.com/product.sc?productId=947&categoryId=8
Everything except coolant.

Ratt said:

Thanks all for your assistance. I've read a lot of the horror stories on here about TB's failing (or other components taking them out). It wasnt something I realized before getting the car and not sure I would have made the same choice if I had known. On the other hand since I've aquired it I immediately made it my daily driver. This is how I work the bugs out of them is drive the sh*t out of them and start fixing everything I don't like and learn on the way. I must say, just cleaning out the snow screen and changing the fuel filter made quite a bit if difference in performance. Now I think I've been bitten. I've had MUCH faster cars and built much faster cars and motorcycles but I've never had one that as this fun to drive with this fuel economy. IF the TB goes before I have the kit in hand and time to fix it.. so be it... Im not going to stop driving it until I have everything necessary to perform the change. Until then I'll drive it as I have been and continue to learn about it. And enjoy it. I appreciate everyones input.
I've decided to get the VCDS and kits coming. I've been looking at Kits from www.metalmanparts.com and www.kermatdi.com. Does anyone have a suggestion as to which one would be the best choice? The Kerma kit is about 30 bucks cheaper I think...

Also I've not found VCDS under $299. Can someone supply links with part numbers if it is available cheaper?

THanks again!

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Cruise the classifieds here and look for either a KII or HEX+CAN model VCDS. they can be had for anywhere between $150 (KII) up to $280 (HEX+CAN). The KII model will only work on up to her 2006 (I think).

In regards to the timing belt tools. Cruise the classifieds here for those also. Some people buy them, use them and sell them for what they bought them for. Recently, I notified another local TDI'er of a set of TB tools for sale here and he made the purchase. For what he bought them for, he can use them and resell them with no money lost.

Any of the supporting vendors here sell a good deluxe timing belt kit, just depends on who you want to give your money to.

As others have said, it is in your better intrest to perform a timing belt service BEFORE failure as its many times more expensive if it fails. I, personally, haven't done either of the timing belt jobs on the cars listed in my signature. I had both done by gurus listed here for roughly $600 OTD parts labor etc. It was a much better route for me because I don't have to worry about it, they make a little extra money and the car is only down a few days. Also, if you do decide to have a guru perform the job, don't be afraid to drive to have it down. I drove 3 hours to have the most recent one done...

Ratt - I am in Savannah and have both the tools and the VCDS for your 2003 car. I also have the ability to extract your car's secret code which you will need if you ever need extra keys programmed. Let me know if I can be of assistance.

I've done ONE TB job. Did it 10k miles ago on my car: I determined that the only previous TB job was likely done by the dealer around 60k miles and they installed the old 60k mile belt! (all other components were 100k mile ones). When I pulled everything I found that the small roller was exceedingly dry and starting to squeal- it was only a matter of time before that thing went. Anyway...

I was meticulous doing this job, bought the tools. Got all assembled (with a couple of detours for a stripped out motor mount etc.) and the thing fired right up and ran very well. It ran so well that I ran it for about 8k miles before I got VCDS: starts warm or cold instantly; got one tank at 52.9mpg, average has been over 50mpg for the previous 11 tanks. Hooked up VCDS and found my timing was just about perfect, only slightly advanced (which people tend to strive for, though it's debatable whether the science backs this up- nonetheless, the engines seem to run just fine like that [I know mine does]). Bottom line: if you set things right your engine should start and run pretty well, well enough, perhaps, that VCDS won't be needed right away (like for me). You could also find a local shop and have them check/set your timing- it might be cheaper than buying VCDS, but if you're going to keep your car I'd recommend just saving up for VCDS (which is what I did).

I've spent close to $1k in tools for these cars. Never thought I'd be doing that! However, I had a fair number of repairs to do, and I figure I've already likely saved thousands of dollars in labor- the tools are paid for.

Geordi said:

Ratt - I am in Savannah and have both the tools and the VCDS for your 2003 car. I also have the ability to extract your car's secret code which you will need if you ever need extra keys programmed. Let me know if I can be of assistance.

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And there you go!

Perfect example of why this site rocks!

Ratt said:

Also I've not found VCDS under $299. Can someone supply links with part numbers if it is available cheaper?

THanks again!

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$249 as I posted before. Right on their pricing page. This will work for 2005.5 and earlier cars only. Just what you need. You better stay in a Holiday Inn if you are going to keep driving that thing around. The belt will break and destroy much and you will end up dumping/scrapping the car, as many have, rather than fix it.

http://store.ross-tech.com/shop/VCKII.html

Many hear of the fuel economy and want one with no knowledge of the maintenance requirements or history.

From the Trusted mechanics list you have 2 around you in the Atlanta area:

Roger Feldt
Atlanta Southside
678-907-4221

Troy Sentz
Atlanta Northside
Canton, GA 570.233.1385
TDI Club username TNTKNC

I appreciate everyone's support. If this TB does go before I'm prepared to replace it, I will replace/repair the motor. I like the car (other than that damn crayon smell) and it has quite a few more years left in it.
It has an aftermarket stereo. I read there is a test I need to do before conneting a VCDS to it. The PO has the original radio so I'll probably get that from him, just in case. He said it worked fine he just wanted blue tooth and NAV built in.
I've used my OBD-II scanner and was able to scan while driving to check boost and power, etc. I've also talked with Jeff @ RocketChip and will be going to a stage 2 or stage 3 tune after the TB is done and possibly an intake clean. Just not sure about the EGR delete. The county I live in does not require an emissions check however the neighboring counties do so this one could change at some point.
Lots to do... I enjoy it as long as it doesnt leave me stranded.
Again... I appreciate everyone's support. And Geordi...I may be in contact with you once I determine my direction. Thanks!!

Oh and I forgot to mention that I have been in contact with Roger Feldt. Very nice person. He quoted me doing the TB and intake clean. I would probably go with him if I decide not to do this myself but I've always been a wrench head... so...

You may also want to get in touch with Andrew - AArodriguez. He is based out of Atlanta these days (or was, the last I talked with him) He did the Malone tune on my 03, and it has been great.

You will want to think about upgraded nozzles and possibly (probably) having the injection pump reworked at a Bosch shop. If you can't find one locally, I can highly recommend Everglades Diesel in Ft Lauderdale. It isn't cheap at $800, but they will blueprint the pump back to factory in all respects. Mine came back like a completely new machine. Doing the nozzles before the tune will help to bring everything together, and he can eliminate the EGR code from the system so you can make "other upgrades" that solves that problem from a mechanical perspective.

Once I have the timing belt done and access to VCDS to check the overall health of the system I planned on getting a tune. I'm only going with the tune up front as this is my daily driver/work car. Once I have all the decade+ old car kinks worked out of it I may evolve it from there. Based on my reading it seems that RocketChip was really good to work with, easy and realiable so I was leaning that way. By the time I'm ready for the tune I'll check more into the malone tune and othera that are available to see for sure. I'm pretty sure I'm not touching the turbo, injectors or fuel pump until everything else a top notch. I may work in the intake plumbing some as it seems EXTREMELY restrictive however I dont have flow volume data(or any data for that matter) to support my thoughts. As I evolve my understanding I'm sure my opionion and plans will change. I appreciate all the feedback. This forum is a GREAT resource!

The stock intake is not restrictive unless you are heavily modded, which doesn't sound like you intend to go that route. The turbo can draw all the air it needs, and you won't get any benefit from changing the intake system (other than more noise and increased chance of water injection/hydrolock). For the most part it draws air from outside the engine compartment, also better than supposed "CAI" systems.

So you would say that unless I intend to change the turbo (which I understand the stock turbo tuned can sustain 17-19psi) then all the original intake plumbing will flow enough volume to support that? I guess it should if the cold air opening ahead of the snowscreen is any indication of size requirement....

Personally I wouldn't tune it at all. If you do, a tuner that is easily accessed by you is the way I would go. I had Rocketchip on my 2006. He was near and I had it done. Never was back this way again, well maybe once. Tune was great. If you need updates or changes having them close or accessible (flashzilla) is very handy. I would just leave it stock and use VCDS to just dial the EGR back, and leave it at that. A stock car in great mechanical condition is what I would strive for. A lot less to worry over.

Being that this is your first TB and you have the desire to learn, you might discuss with one of the trusted mechanics letting you watch. I have read of others who have done it. It would give you the opportunity to watch and learn before attempting it on your own.

I went with a 1.5 stage tune - Eliminate the EGR code from the system so it never lights the idiot light, and you can then get a dieselgeek race pipe like I did OR just spend 5 cents and jam a nickel in between the tube and the EGR valve. But the race pipe looks cleaner.

I went to (IIRC) pp520 nozzles which flow a bit better for the 11mm pump I have, and nozzles should be changed out when they have lots of miles on them anyway - the edges can get dull and the spray patterns can change. Greg Landuyt on here can balance and pop-test the nozzles for you on your injectors, and then they will all open at the same / proper pressure and perform the best. You will need the tune to make use of the upgrades.

After 150k miles or so, the VE pump can use a refresh also - mine had a broken quantity adjuster spring and needed the seals replaced internally. When I bought it, it had 244k miles on it, and only was ever serviced at the original selling dealership. It moved under its own power, but the thing was very slow and down on power, and I'm sure the dealership was quoting the original owner $3500 to completely replace the pump. They are idiots, the pump itself lasts almost indefinitely, but it does need things once in a while. This is why the rebuild is so valuable yet expensive. The car starts now just by looking sideways at it.

As for boost pressure - the turbo and intake is just fine until you start making silly power levels, and even on my automatic I have more power than I can put to the wheels. On the highway at 80mph, I'm usually only showing 3psi of boost on flat ground and cruise control. I rarely see the boost gauge rise higher than 14psi even while accelerating unless I am stomping on it away from a light.