Air to water cooler.... why don't i see a lot?

I am not whining about anything. I am just making it clear, unless you over budget and those who budgeted 200-400 dollars are in for a big surprise for the ATW. The car I showed in the picture has over $18,000 in modifications. I am sure those who budgeted 200-400 dollars will be whining about there car being in pieces while they are waiting for missing parts, or they will be whining in 2 months why isn't their ATW working properly. I don't care anymore, I will stop wasting my time trying to help OP with proper planing.

Diesel-Benz, final point I would like to make for my personal satisfaction . Map sensor bunk cost over $35. Obviously you did not mention that fact in your shopping list. This simple example proved that none of you who provided a Shopping list considered 100% everything required. Your budget failed already. Did you just forget? Maybe take my advice and over budget. You would be waiting 2-5 days before you get the map sensor bunk, unless your order over night shipping, and then your into even more cost. Good luck next time.

Diesel_Benz said:

Intercooler: $185 (and that was $85 more expensive than if I went with the more common design)
Pump: Free, already on the car.
Air couplers: $30
Hoses: $10
Radiator: Free, already on the car.
Intake manifold: $15 for the pipe
Total cost of my system: $238

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I think we've all been there, and paid the price. But I have also seen where innovative people here on the site have figured out cheaper, better ways to get things done. It is often trial an error getting there, something that I am sure you know all too well. Trial and error costs money, and I haven't heard too many people crying about how much they under budgeted there projects, they either pony up, stretch it out or abandon it as a bad idea.

Pointing out things that might be needed in someones plans is useful, telling them they are wasting their time or that it is going to cost too much, well I already wrote what I think about that.

I love your car BTW.

ChippedNotBroken said:

I think we've all been there, and paid the price. But I have also seen where innovative people here on the site have figured out cheaper, better ways to get things done. It is often trial an error getting there, something that I am sure you know all too well. Trial and error costs money, and I haven't heard too many people crying about how much they under budgeted there projects, they either pony up, stretch it out or abandon it as a bad idea.

Pointing out things that might be needed in someones plans is useful, telling them they are wasting their time or that it is going to cost too much, well I already wrote what I think about that.

I love your car BTW.

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I think you miss understood me. I never said they are wasting their time. I am actually one of the few in this thread that support ATW setups. I think you have me confused with others who said ATW is not good way to go.

There is no doubt that your system is beautiful, and that you are a proponent of the technology. It will be interesting to see how many and what results are obtained from the less elaborate and potentially less expensive setups.

I'm happy with my air-air setup that actually did cost me $300 after considering saw blades, the extra on the electric bill to run the air compressor and sawzall, etc.. The first one I did, which was on my car, I hacked up a few things quite extensively, but the few I did after that look stock after the bumper cover is on.. My 03 Jetta has a Golf nose on it, and I'm going to put a FMIC on and I will be certain to post pictures of the finished product for Kasper to see.. It will look completely stock, minimal bumper support modification, and will have fog lights in the small grilles.. I'll be putting it together over the winter along with a few other serious mods..

Flying Kasper said:

Map sensor bunk cost over $35

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Ummm, what is that for in an intercooler system? I do agree with you that the setup that Diesel-Benz made for his own personal vehicle wouldn't be acceptable to build for just about any paying customer. I'm not sure how cheap I am going to be on the build components (hoses, fittings and such).

As for the cost of materials/electricity, I can do just about whatever I want to do after hours at the shop. Its one of the perks of working there, I also get deals on parts. Back purged welds? seriously, this is an intercooler build. Even if I did back purge the welds there would only be a few and I would be able to rent a bottle and I get deals on the gas so those costs would be minimal.

The appeal of this system to me is having a short pressure tube runs and only having to run a few wires and some water lines.

Are we just disputing the cost of using an air to water intercooler?

Flying Kasper can you post more info on your ATW cooler? I would like to know which one you went with along with which pump you run.

Hello,

Flying Kasper said:

Only reason why I would go water to air is to preserve the stock front end on the golf. FMIC does not fit on a GOLF. Requires a lot of work, and it will never look stock.

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Those who think a Golf is tight should check out a MKIII. I've seen some good looking FMIC installs in MKIIIs. But I'm 99% certain a FMIC cannot be installed in one without cutting the rebar:



I think I've read that some needed to move the radiator back an inch, too. I'm just not sure an FMIC is worth the structural integrity of the car; nor the sacrfice in rigidity in the front of a car used for autocross.

I've considered A/W for a LONG time and have had my eyes on the FrozenBoost kits. I've also considered dual SMICs (I even have a used SMIC on hand for test fitting). But I also understand my greatest cost on either project will revolve around paying someone to fab up the aluminum piping. The A/W piping should be less than dual SMICs, especially if I put the AWIC in the stock location.

But all of this is just brain fodder. I'm in no rush to make a move. I have a lot on my plate already. I'll be watching this topic. Please post your results and costs, even if overrun.

Good Luck,

Scott

Finaly a buy a AWIC kit...
I pay 499$ for a KIT + 3x silicone adaptor tube + 180degree tube + 2x tube with 3 port 3/8 (before and after AWIC, pressure and temp verification, last hole is for injection option!).
My plan is put 12x12 rad on driver side (like see on picture), AWIC dehind intake and use oem IC with water to make more heat dissipation capacity and small reservoire.
With PD130 intake and GTB1756VK install on my fresh ALH rebuilt, i think this setup make very good power and look oem.




Dieseleux

benz, is that a chevy truck Vortec filter in your picture? looks like it fits in there fairly well even though it pulls hot(ish) air..

TDIJetta99 said:

benz, is that a chevy truck Vortec filter in your picture?

Click to expand...

Yes, its the larger HD version (Fram 8037).

You joined this club on 01/10/04 and in that time have only started 5 threads of your own....

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You sure are snoopy. Want to know my life story too?

I wish this thread went on a more informative road as I might use a air-water-air setup on the intermediate part of the compound setup we're after.

Now on Diesel-Benz's defense...yes defense; he might be a miserable man (which loves company). He is very informative at the same time.

I'm envious of the mechanical standalone control setup he has on his car. Now it may not be very refined but it works. He has started many threads on the MB forum (superturbodiesel.com) that I reference from time to time.

Diesel Benz likes to be controversial, not the approach I would take. Bottom line is we're all after the same thing "MORE POWER" and everyone's opinion counts .

NoJoke said:

I wish this thread went on a more informative road as I might use a air-water-air setup on the intermediate part of the compound setup we're after.

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Don't worry, I'm ordering parts now and I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Come on, I'm trying to keep this about something interesting.... Or at least usefull

sardo_67 said:

Come on, I'm trying to keep this about something interesting.... Or at least usefull

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Ok, Well when your picking a core, pick the biggest one you can fit. The bigger the better. I would recommend trying to fit the biggest Radiator for the water, with a decent size res. Use the bosch water pump from the SC mustang. The rest is logical, avoid sharp bends, make it as direct as possible. and do a nice job with wiring the water pump. Hook it up to the oil pressure sensor.

Kasper,

Flying Kasper said:

...and do a nice job with wiring the water pump. Hook it up to the oil pressure sensor.

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I've considered powering it via N109 along with my lift pump or maybe using a Hobbs switch to allow boost to trigger it. But why the oil pressure sensor? Do you know how the Mustang does it?

Scott

Stealth TDI said:

Kasper,



I've considered powering it via N109 along with my lift pump or maybe using a Hobbs switch to allow boost to trigger it. But why the oil pressure sensor? Do you know how the Mustang does it?

Scott

Click to expand...

Hobbs meters run of the oil pressure sensor. Why? Because a Hobbs meter will not count time unless you have oil pressure. Why? Well RPM= more oil pressure. Unless you have rpm, no need for the Hobbs meter to count time on the engine, not enough tear and wear, ( if we are talking about the same hobbs meter ).

You set it up so that unless your engine has a load, there is no need for the water pump to run. You will need a relay I believe to make the oil pressure sensor activate the water pump. You can wire it up any way you like. Not a big deal if you do it differently then I did. MY fans and water pump do not run at start up until oil pressure builds, preventing my battery draining during start up or before start up. If your oil pressure is low, most likely the temperature of the oil should be low, so your turbo should be running fairly cool, and it most likely is not making boost at Idle rpm. My method is quite easy solution.

interesting, so when should the pump come on and i would guess to just put a temp gauge in the radiator to turn the fan on at a certain tremp?

i would like to set mine up like that but have an actual "on" switch as well so if i'm doing a dyno run or for what ever reason would like the water circulating i can.

FK,

Thanks for the explanation. A Hobbs switch, if I understand correctly, can accept an air pressure input and can be set to activate at a certain pressure. Therefore, I could likely set it to energize the pump when the intake manifold is above 5-psi... or perhaps 2-psi if I want it to run when the car is in motion.

Scott

I receive my kit!





3inch 180degree tube is pretty big!





Dieseleux

I receive today my PD130 intake...
Now i have most of important part to make my Air/Water intercooler!



Dieseleux

i was going to start on my AWIC build but i have to get the D24 intake working first seeing as i'm not designing this to work with a stock ALH

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=296018

Flying Kasper said:

You set it up so that unless your engine has a load, there is no need for the water pump to run.

Click to expand...

That is false. The water pump needs to be running all the time to keep the water as close to ambient as possible.

You will need a relay I believe to make the oil pressure sensor activate the water pump.

Click to expand...

Wrong as well. The Bosch water pump pulls less than 1amp.

MY fans and water pump do not run at start up until oil pressure builds, preventing my battery draining during start up or before start up.

Click to expand...

The pump can run all night long without draining your battery.

My method is quite easy solution.

Click to expand...

Actually, its vastly overcomplicated.

Listen to somebody with actual experience building a quality system; me.
Hook the pump up to an ignition switched power source and put a 1amp fuse inline. Done.
If you really want to over complicate the system then add a 130*f temperature switch to the outlet of the intercooler's radiator to activate the radiator fan.

Why do people continue to listen to Flying Kasper? Its very clear he is a troll with no intelligible information on the subject.

dieseleux said:

I receive my kit!

Click to expand...

Now that is a decent system. That design core is far more efficient than the cheaper wedge style, just plumb the cold water to the air outlet side with hot water exiting the air inlet side. Where do you plan on installing the intercooler?

GT2359V alias Diesel Benz said:

Why do people continue to listen to Flying Kasper? Its very clear he is a troll with no intelligible information on the subject.

Now that is a decent system. That design core is far more efficient than the cheaper wedge style, just plumb the cold water to the air outlet side with hot water exiting the air inlet side. Where do you plan on installing the intercooler?

Click to expand...

Mmmmmm.

Well at least he doesn't try to hide it. Even spent enough time to update his profile for us.

ugh.. here we go...

dieseleux said:

I receive my kit!





3inch 180degree tube is pretty big!





Dieseleux

Click to expand...

so what ever happened with your kit?

Yes, did you somehow get under the $1000 minimum or did you burn $500 in a trashcan to get to it?

GT2256V said:

Yes, did you somehow get under the $1000 minimum or did you burn $500 in a trashcan to get to it?

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You gotta be kiddin' me. You again?

I work too hard to work on my setup...
My 180degree 3" are little too big to fit , need less radius.





Dieseleux