BRM Suffers Catastrophic Engine Failure

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
It was the glow plug that finally killed the engine, but looking at the cam problems and having a BRM group looking... Anyone want to test some cantilever force reducing bearings to see if we can change the BRM cam running position? The BRM cams shut off the belt end oiling first, but then that is where the BRM usually loses a follower.

CharlieT lost a follower next to a flake copper releasing middle cam bearing.

We need a BRM test engine for Cantilever Reduction, to see if we can get a better running position for the BRM cam.

In fact we need anyone doing testing or just photos of what goes on with the BRMs.

eddif
 

Bob S.

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Location
Central MD.
TDI
A B4V, some ALHs & BRMs
It was the glow plug that finally killed the engine,
eddif
Do you enjoy just making things up. What do you mean "finally killed the engine". Please accept that this failure was not a cam or bearing issue. Look at the photos. They were fine.

We need a BRM test engine for Cantilever Reduction, to see if we can get a better running position for the BRM cam.

In fact we need anyone doing testing or just photos of what goes on with the BRMs.

eddif
You ignoring Frank's, Colt Cam's, & others work. Their work appears to be proving quite satisfactory.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
Do you enjoy just making things up. What do you mean "finally killed the engine". Please accept that this failure was not a cam or bearing issue. Look at the photos. They were fine.



You ignoring Frank's, Colt Cam's, & others work. Their work appears to be proving quite satisfactory.
Well if you had any real evidence of what you say about it working, it would help.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=253137&page=13
The postage size photos if blown up show wear to copper. Note the wear mark is on the no tab side. Other bearing show wear also.



This next photo is a CharlieT photo showing that same #1 upper cam bearing in a stock worn condition.

Note the wear mark is on the no tab side, which is the same spot the Franko6 wear spot is. (next to oil slot)

The reason I mention this is that I have been told that it is a bolt torque issue, but it tends to be a engine model specific issue. Some model engines wear in different positions because of cam position and bearing cocking. This stock wear spot is the same as the Franko6 wear spot and used stock factory torque.
+++++++++++++++++++++

The stock VW cams often wear to 80,000 miles and people report they are fine. Suddenly they are ruined. Before we declare Colt cams to be working we need some 20,000 mile US a year folks to roll up 120,000 miles on a Colt cam before we declare the Colt cams a winner. 300 mile a day drivers can get the miles but do not show the general population of driver wear experience. You can drive gas burners long miles at 300 miles a day.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I am not ignoring the other folks. I am looking for comporable photos and actual tests and comparisons of the flank wear that is going on. If you are going to compare cams you need wear comparisons, not just he knows trig and can talk a good talk. Show me the 120,000 mile US tests. To be told everything is fine does not work at times. I was told the bearings were fine, but when I blew up a picture I saw disaster. The rest of the pictures are not all good either. There are comments about the wear in the thread.
++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can assure you I have been under close watch as I do my thing with the bearings. I went back in the oiling thread and in Red showed what not to do. I show cocked bearings and leveled bearings. I do links to support my theory when possible. Grace has kept me safe at times. I am not a really all together person. I am a jerk from Mississippi who through Grace pulled a valve cover off at just the right mileage to see wear start. If I had not pulled the valve cover off that day the cam would have been shot in a week / month / ?. The wear changed in 100 miles, if I had waited 1,000 miles the eddif thread would not exist. That is not my intelligence it is just pure Mercy at work.

I think it is an oiling thing. I do not think it is a cam design issue. VW has always pushed the cam timing, and they stay on the verge of what can be done. Because the cams look good right up till oiling goes away, I tend to say oiling is the issue.

Heck I know cam grinding can help. But:
You lose HP that requires a tune.
The tune destroys your fueling certification.
If you run to disaster you must buy a core.
Higher lift sometimes destroys the nose regardless of what you do to the ramps.
etc.

You asked I responded. Post some good pictures as things go well.

eddif
 

auntulna

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Location
Springfield, MO
TDI
05 GLS Passat wagon, mit panzer plate
If money is tight, I have a lower cost option:

I have a BRM cam with numbered lifters that was used for 3000 miles in my 05 Passat. I have switched to a BHW cam again. This cam was broken in with Joe Gibbs BR oil, and ran with ZDDP after that. Purchased new from Franko6 and inspected by him when removed. It is completely as good as new, and break-in will not be needed. Asking $300
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
I suppose it would not hurt to look at a few of your followers. I went to your web page and have moved one picture for our view.

This is the #3 cylinder followers, and over to the right we can see the #4 followers.

IMHO all this wear existed before the glow plug failure. Number 4 cylinder follower wear shows up also, and #4 is an indicator of problems existing before the glow plug failed.

IMHO if you had run a few more thousand miles you would have had a cam failure (probably after warranty). The glow plug failure saved the day for you. Warranty end was near, and VW would have said you had no codes to show cam problems.

I am sorry you had the problems. If possible we might look into keeping the valve wear from happening again. You had an early cam failure.

Do you have any more photos you might share with us on this thread? If you post them at tdiclub we can view them much easier. Cam bearing photos that show the oil slots would be of interest to me.

eddif
 

dschein

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Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
eddif,

Agree with you as I noted on my webpage "The root cause doesn't seem to have been something in the head".

I'm not certain the glow plug created my problems either. A broken plug doesn't explain the pieces of Alum in the oil pan.

Because this is a warranty claim my access to the old parts was limited. All the files I took are posted on my site. Honestly I think the dealer was very open an cooperative.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
eddif,

Agree with you as I noted on my webpage "The root cause doesn't seem to have been something in the head".

I'm not certain the glow plug created my problems either. A broken plug doesn't explain the pieces of Alum in the oil pan.

Because this is a warranty claim my access to the old parts was limited. All the files I took are posted on my site. Honestly I think the dealer was very open an cooperative.
I do realize I do not know it all. I do realize I am a jerk from Mississippi. I wish I were wonderful, but that does not seem to happen.

There are several root causes here:
1... 15 cam bearing oiling (engineering) issues caused the cam failure IMHO
2... Ceramic glow plugs work great, but they are fragile.
3... Valve top broke off

I suppose you are so glad to have the car fixed, VW criticism would not suit you right now. Ever consider how you dodged disaster by Grace? You are super Blessed.

The PD has some great VW design work, but at the same time there are several issues that need attention.

1...With oiling modifications, no 6,000 RPM shifts, no carbon strikes, and higher viscosity oil the cams and followers do not have to fail so often. IMHO.
2...The ceramic glow plugs just need to be removed by VW. If one breaks off the head just may need to come off. Since VW shops seem to try and cut corners, you have to be ready to remove the head yourself or have a shop do the glow plug replacement process.
3... The valve head breaking off was probably the result of the glow plug getting between the piston and one side of the valve (already mentioned). That valve head banging on top of the piston will put cracked / fractured aluminum piston parts in the oil pan. When driven to total failure pieces of debris get back into the intake and get into other cylinders, debris may even make it into the EGR system and wind up no telling where.

Your sharing your troubles has helped us all. Keep us posted on the progress. Cover up this post with many more as the engine is broken in. Post both places. Just a bump on this thread will let us know you have posted on your other site.

Thanks
eddif
 

dschein

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Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
eddif,

I am very happy that this project is being paid for by VW. However that doesn't make me any less interested in finding the fault (regardless of who or what it is). From your list:

1 - agree, but cam failure didn't cause the engine failure
2 - agreed and in Sept 09 glow plug #1 went bad, I replaced it myself
3 - seems most likely that the broken valve caused the damage and possibly the aluminum in the pan.

however......

When the car shut off (@ 72 MPH w/cruise) and I coasted to the side of the road. There was no noise and the engine turned over. Being a geek I grabbed my VCDS (formally Vag-Com :)) and scanned the car. That scan turned up two errors for 01 (Engine) and they were:

008213 - Intake Manifold Flap Position Sensor (Bank 1): Implausible Signal
P2015 - 000 - - - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 89310 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 15:17:43

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1428 /min
Speed: 50.0 km/h
Load: 17.3 %
Voltage: 14.14 V
Mass Air / Rev.: 160.0 mg/str
Duty Cycle: 94.7 %
Bin. Bits: 00000000

000305 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1: Signal too Low
P0131 - 000 - - - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 92656 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 07:30:09

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2436 /min
Speed: 112.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Mass Air / Rev.: 80.0 mg/str
(no units): 0.20
(no units): 128.0
Bin. Bits: 10001001

Notice there is no error to indicate a failed glow plug! Here is a scan from Sept of 09 and how I learned that #1 glow plug was bad.

005658 - Glowplug for Cylinder 1 (Q10): Open Circuit
P161A - 000 - -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 85730 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 04:54:49

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 819 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 14.36 V
Bin. Bits: 00101100
Temperature: 27.0°C
Bin. Bits: 10110000

So now you see why I'm not 100% certain that the glow plug broke while driving.
 

eddif

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
Location
MS
TDI
2004 Jetta PD Automatic
eddif,

I am very happy that this project is being paid for by VW. However that doesn't make me any less interested in finding the fault (regardless of who or what it is). From your list:

1 - agree, but cam failure didn't cause the engine failure
2 - agreed and in Sept 09 glow plug #1 went bad, I replaced it myself
3 - seems most likely that the broken valve caused the damage and possibly the aluminum in the pan.

however......

When the car shut off (@ 72 MPH w/cruise) and I coasted to the side of the road. There was no noise and the engine turned over. Being a geek I grabbed my VCDS (formally Vag-Com :)) and scanned the car. That scan turned up two errors for 01 (Engine) and they were:



So now you see why I'm not 100% certain that the glow plug broke while driving.
I suggested the glow plug might have broken at the dealership in post 17.

There is one other failure that has not been mentioned. When the valves clatter the valve slamming closed into the head valve seat can jerk the valve head off. I lost a valve in Texas on a 1.6 diesel. The valve had been tapping for a long time (I just got the car but had not fixed the valve adjustment yet). If in fact the slack in the valve system (due to wear) was causing tapping valves; then the failure of the valve head could have been the fault of the cam / follower wear. I agree with you with no noise, no problem turning over, and pretty clean VCDS that it makes you wonder when all that failure happened.

We will keep tossing the ball back and forth till we exhaust some of the possible causes.

Edit: I think you had two failures: the cam / follower wear (failure) and the valve, glow plug, and piston destruction. One did not have to cause the other.
eddif
 
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dschein

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
It’s possible that the wear of the cam / valve assembly caused the valve head to be weakened from hitting the valve seat and finally snapped off. With the engine running at highway RPM’s the valve head bounced around in the cylinder causing the visible head and piston damage. Finally the valve head found a home smashed into the piston (red circle on image below), this may also account for the aluminum pieces in the oil pan (yellow arrows on image below). While bouncing around the loose valve head could have caused the glow plug to weaken or crack. Not enough to fail the initial scan (w/VCDS) along the road but by the time it had been bounced on & off a roll back and drug into the dealers it failed their scan. Then while turning the glow plug for removal to do a compression test the tip fell off. This would explain why the engine turned over when the dealer began researching things, then suddenly stopped turning 360 degrees.



 
Last edited:

dschein

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Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
Day 34

The dealer called and told me they have been working with VW but are still unable to locate the problem.

They have tried a new EGR valve, Air Flow Sensor and Air Intake valve. Cleaned the intercooler (looking for blockage).

Tested the turbo, wastegate and ran a lot more tests. Everything checks good....

At this rate my loaner car will be due for service before I get mine back.
 

dschein

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Location
Reading, Pennsylvania
TDI
None
40 days from the failure and my car is back! Page 1 has been updated with all the details. Thanks to everyone who followed my saga and offered suggestions.

Today is Day 1 of the new engine (1 year or 12,000 miles) and the nagging question, what oil should I use.
 

hid3

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Location
Lithuania, Vilnius
TDI
Golf V 1.9 TDI-PD 105 HP
40 days from the failure and my car is back! Page 1 has been updated with all the details. Thanks to everyone who followed my saga and offered suggestions.

Today is Day 1 of the new engine (1 year or 12,000 miles) and the nagging question, what oil should I use.
Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w-40?
 
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