Malone tune stage 2 or 3

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 4, 2015

My parents gave me their 02 Jetta mk4 and ever since I've been upgrading it. I currently have a 2.5" straight pipe with cat and muffler delete with the stock down pipe. I'd like to purchase a tune from Malone tuning because I've heard they're good and the most affordable I've seen but I don't know which one to get? Stage 2 or 3? Stage 3 recommends upgrading the clutch but I can't afford that at the moment.

A5INKY · Jul 4, 2015

Stage 1 only unless you upgrade nozzles. If you do upgrade nozzles, tuning level will depend on which ones you choose and that clutch situation. Stage 1.5 is designed for bigger nozzles but stock clutch. It limits the torque peak to near stock level to take the stress off the OE clutch.

jfbsaratoga · Jul 4, 2015

Go big or go home. Do the stage 3 and start saving for a clutch and nozzles. You are already bit by the mod bug and I would hate to see you pay for two tunes. Oh and go easy on it untill you have the cash to spend on the clutch.

boertje · Jul 4, 2015

A5INKY said:
Stage 1 only unless you upgrade nozzles. If you do upgrade nozzles, tuning level will depend on which ones you choose and that clutch situation. Stage 1.5 is designed for bigger nozzles but stock clutch. It limits the torque peak to near stock level to take the stress off the OE clutch.

Exactly! I have an updated clutch and injectors so I went stage 2. More than enough I feel for stock turbo.

Nevada_TDI · Jul 4, 2015

I have the Sprint 520 nozzles with a 17 psi tune and a Southbend Stage II clutch. Very fun to drive...

Enabled · Jul 5, 2015

Stage 3, and drive it gentler until you save for a clutch.
A second tune down the line is about the same cost as the parts for a clutch change. Of course labor not included.

This is just my opinion. In the long term it's cheaper.

I have nozzles and my tune is the equivalent of a "stage 4" tune, and I can slip the G60/VR6 clutch setup; keep in mind.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 5, 2015

thanks for the input guys. what do you recommend for injectors? i looked around but I'm new to all this so dont know whats good and depending on injector prices ill probably have enough money for them plus the tune.

jfbsaratoga · Jul 5, 2015

Pp520

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 5, 2015

what do they mean by "smoke" with he pp520 if you have a stock turbo

A5INKY · Jul 5, 2015

Stage 1 maximizes the stock injectors. Look more closely and you'll see stages 2 & 3 specifically states nozzle upgrade as required. It is not a question of "go big or go home" it is more that the purpose of quality tuning is to maximize the hardware present. If you keep stock nozzles, then stage 1 is best.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 5, 2015

I'd like the upgrade the nozzles actually which is why I was looking for stage 2 or 3 but I didn't know if I NEEDED to upgrade clutch or not also needed recommendations for parts! Thanks for all the input!

A5INKY · Jul 6, 2015

Clutch "need" is subjective until yours is slipping. Some of the earlier OE LUK DMF clutches held up pretty well to power adders. Even with more torque on tap than your clutch can hold, a skilled driver can still drive around clutch slippage for a time. Everyone has their clutch preference, I've had good luck with South Bend stage 2 endurance units. DC and Bully are other options. I favor the SB because it holds up well and is silent even w/o a DMF.

I favor a nozzle in the range of the Bosio PP764 for the tune levels you mention. Those tune well at that power level but have enough headroom to fuel a little bigger turbo if you choose to upgrade one day.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

Thank you! Very helpful info

jfbsaratoga · Jul 6, 2015

Nathaniel.Troy said:
what do they mean by "smoke" with he pp520 if you have a stock turbo

You will get smoke if you do not have an appropriate mix of fuel and air (too much fuel). That is why most tuners will increase the boost with the fueling regardless of injectors. The problem happens when you run over 18 PSI boost (stock is 15 I believe) on a stock vnt15. The vnt15 will become unreliable at those boost levels. If you put pp520s on a stock car, you will be flowing more fuel and not enough air, even with a tune at 18PSI. I say go big because you mentioned swapping the turbo. The car will not smoke unless you go WOT with a stage 3 tune. Malone makes his tunes to be very drivable in the mid range. If you put a plan what you want your car to be, you will not pay twice for tunes. Ask me how I know...

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

So with the stock vnt15 and pp520 with a stage 3 tune would I need to get an intercooler?

roadlust · Jul 6, 2015

No the stock intercooler is fine.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

Thanks everyone!

A5INKY · Jul 6, 2015

jfbsaratoga said:
You will get smoke if you do not have an appropriate mix of fuel and air (too much fuel). That is why most tuners will increase the boost with the fueling regardless of injectors. The problem happens when you run over 18 PSI boost (stock is 15 I believe) on a stock vnt15. The vnt15 will become unreliable at those boost levels. If you put pp520s on a stock car, you will be flowing more fuel and not enough air, even with a tune at 18PSI. I say go big because you mentioned swapping the turbo. The car will not smoke unless you go WOT with a stage 3 tune. Malone makes his tunes to be very drivable in the mid range. If you put a plan what you want your car to be, you will not pay twice for tunes. Ask me how I know...

Not exactly. This is why it is a good idea to work with an experienced dealer. Malone can make R520 nozzles work smoke free with a stock turbo. This is why one chooses an ECU tune, to make the hardware work properly. If Malone knows what nozzles you are running, he will control fueling with them to correct air/fuel ratio (or smoke). Even if a tune ends up being a little smokey, a good tune dealer will adjust pump IQ to control it.

This whole tune "stages" marketing thing attempts to oversimplify what is actually going on. Once one stops thinking of the tune like a bolt-on part (as many seem to do) and realize it is a calibration instead, your power build will get where you want to go much more efficiently.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

Makes a lot of sense A5INKY is it fine to run the bigger nozzles without a tune for a while?

jfbsaratoga · Jul 6, 2015

A5INKY said:
Not exactly. This is why it is a good idea to work with an experienced dealer. Malone can make R520 nozzles work smoke free with a stock turbo. This is why one chooses an ECU tune, to make the hardware work properly. If Malone knows what nozzles you are running, he will control fueling with them to correct air/fuel ratio (or smoke). Even if a tune ends up being a little smokey, a good tune dealer will adjust pump IQ to control it.

This whole tune "stages" marketing thing attempts to oversimplify what is actually going on. Once one stops thinking of the tune like a bolt-on part (as many seem to do) and realize it is a calibration instead, your power build will get where you want to go much more efficiently.

Well said!

A5INKY · Jul 6, 2015

Nathaniel.Troy said:
Makes a lot of sense A5INKY is it fine to run the bigger nozzles without a tune for a while?

There is no pat answer to that question - it depends. Modest nozzle upgrades (not PP764 or R520) can work fine w/o a tune. Some might need an IQ adjustment. If you go big on the nozzle against possible future upgrades (like PP764 or R520) you can run into issues w/o ECU tuning for them. For one, they will be too smokey as the air fuel ratio will likely be too far out of whack with OE injection duration and boost pressure. The other risk is overspeeding the turbo. Too much fuel and you can cause boost creep along with high EGTs that can kill your turbo.

It is best to decide on your hardware upgrades and have a tune specifically designed for them ready to install at the same time.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

Ok thanks and the tune says it adds around 40hp and the nozzles say around 15 so would that mean both upgrades would add 55 total horse?

TDI_G · Jul 6, 2015

Just FYI with Malone Tuning, if you get a Stage 1 tune for now and want to upgrade your tune later, as long as you are the original owner of the "tune", you only pay the difference in price of the tunes when you upgrade. For example, I had a stage 3 tune originally, a few months later I upgraded my turbo and the stage 4 tune only cost me $50.

A5INKY · Jul 6, 2015

Nathaniel.Troy said:
Ok thanks and the tune says it adds around 40hp and the nozzles say around 15 so would that mean both upgrades would add 55 total horse?

No, please try to remember, the tune is not a "part" but a calibration. Published tune gains are dependent on having the required hardware upgrades for that tune.

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

Ok that's what I thought but was making sure I understood it right

UhOh · Jul 6, 2015

I pretty much went through all this as well. It's hard to piece all this info together to makes head or tails out of it. I'll also state that A5INKY has done a great job of clarifying the picture. This is a great thread- I'm going to give it 5 stars!

Nathaniel.Troy · Jul 6, 2015

Thanks for the input, it's all very difficult haha especially since I knew nothing about cars before my Jetta!

Big George · Jul 6, 2015

Thanks for ALL the input, VERY good reading! Trying to pickup a 03 Jetta , 5spd with a blown engine. They smashed the oil pan. He bought a used engine 2-3 years ago and never got to it. we shall see how it goes. First step is cleaning, been sitting in a barn for a few years. Put a battery in it today and what could function without engine running, did. Thanks Again

bawward · Jul 6, 2015

For what its worth, after reading a lot it seems like nozzles and a tube go hand in hand.
I'm putting in 520's and getting a stage 2 with the south bend stage 2 clutch.

The car must be reliable and still economical on fuel. This is the combination in seriously considering.

boertje · Jul 6, 2015

Nozzles? I have a set of "T-4" Bosch, one set of PP764, and 4 sets of DLC 520 nozzles (Bosio). They are all great so I don't have a favorite. For the 11mm pump and stage II tune by Malone, the DLC 520 setup by DBW is hard to beat.

Malone tune stage 2 or 3

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