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Old March 14th, 2019, 18:27   #211
flee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [486] View Post
cleaner, yes
more efficient? no
fuel to wheels is still more efficient than fuel to electric to battery to wheels
I'd like to see the numbers on this.
Be sure to include fuel extraction, refining and transportation costs and efficiency.
Of course, your statement is not correct for the nuclear and renewable power usage.
In Tin Man's area, these amount to 34%! Welcome to the present.
It's tough to beat sun to panel/wind generator to vehicle battery for efficiency.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 19:12   #212
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While much electricity is produced by burning fossil fuel, I'm not impressed.
Always 'fun' to go from a debate where someone claims renewables can't work because we don't have enough storage to a debate where storage (EVs ARE storage) can't work because we don't have enough renewables.... LOL ........ *sigh*....... This is why humanity moves forward like its feet are stuck in concrete......

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Old March 14th, 2019, 19:16   #213
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Combined cycle nat. gas (by far the most common type) is ~60% thermally efficient. Internal combustion cars are 20-25% thermally efficient in real world use. Plus, they don't recapture any braking energy (hybrids aside). Accounting for transmission and charging losses, EVs are far more efficient when powered by nat. gas generated electricity.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 00:58   #214
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While much electricity is produced by burning fossil fuel, I'm not impressed.
My 535d is rated among the best conveyances for CO2 emission environmental impact, and the X5 diesel "passed" the WVa NOx study.
We will see how the premium brands respond with decent driver-centered interior designs and better EV dynamics. It will happen as long as battery tech, IT, and charging infrastructure can keep their promises.
TM
For those of you who need a translator for basic English, I will repost my statement for its nuance and value.

Nothing to imply that the 1-5% of the market EV's have captured for how much coin? are more or less "efficient".

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Old March 15th, 2019, 01:26   #215
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This whole dieselgate mess just won't end for VW. Now the SEC wants some of the action. At least they're still bringing in good profits.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/b...sec-fraud.html

The CEO making clever holocaust references isn't that helpful for PR either.

https://jalopnik.com/head-of-volkswa...d-o-1833297831

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Old March 15th, 2019, 06:29   #216
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VW CPO TDIs It starts off with certified TDIs, then redirects to local dealers.
https://vwcpo.com/inventory/conditio...UMyA&gclsrc=ds
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Old March 15th, 2019, 12:09   #217
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Bad link
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Old March 15th, 2019, 12:32   #218
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The cars are hugely expensive for what they are and current battery technology just isn't there yet, by a long shot.

We leased a previous years eGolf because it was the absolute cheapest car that met our needs after the 01m failed in my wife's 2001 TDI and she didn't feel comfortable driving it after I did a manual swap. After all of the government rebates, the monthly lease payments for a year old slow charge model are roughly half what it has cost me in parts alone to maintain the '01 TDI by myself during the 4 years I've owned it. The dealer advertised it as a $39/mo lease, but ended up being a bit more than that in reality with disposition fees and such. She has a short commute that uses less than half the battery charge, along with free chargers at her work so it works great for us.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 14:14   #219
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Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
Combined cycle nat. gas (by far the most common type) is ~60% thermally efficient. Internal combustion cars are 20-25% thermally efficient in real world use. Plus, they don't recapture any braking energy (hybrids aside). Accounting for transmission and charging losses, EVs are far more efficient when powered by nat. gas generated electricity.
You need gas to wheel efficiency. Transmission, charging, and motor are all losses. Guessing by the time it is set and done its pretty close to a TDI in terms of thermodynamic efficiency. I believe an ALH was close to 40%.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 14:46   #220
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You need gas to wheel efficiency. Transmission, charging, and motor are all losses. Guessing by the time it is set and done its pretty close to a TDI in terms of thermodynamic efficiency. I believe an ALH was close to 40%.
Natural Gas in an EV
34kWh (-40% for generation) => 20.4kWh (-12% for Transmission) => 17.9kWh => 17.9kWh * 3mi/kWh (3mi/kWh accounts for charging & motor losses)= 53.7 miles

Oil in a TDI
34kWh (-15% for refining) => 28.9kWh => 28.9kWh * 1.1mi/kWh (40mpg) = 31.8 miles

Nope... as numerous well to wheels studies have already shown EVs use less fuel. And this isn't even taking into account increasing amounts of wind and solar on the grid...
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Old March 17th, 2019, 04:26   #221
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I am probably with you there. There is nothing to get excited about yet. The cars are hugely expensive for what they are and current battery technology just isn't there yet, by a long shot. Infrastructure still needs to be built out as well. I am glad for the early adopters as they are willing to throw large amounts of money at the issue with little regard to anything other than bragging rights really. My current 2015 Beetle tdi stop sale car should last me until the warranty runs out in another 10 years or so. Then I will check on what is available at that time.
Clearly you’ve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines. I’ve driven each - the Model S three times (regular, duodrive, and really bleepin’ fast), the X twice, and three of my friends have the Model 3. They are all world changing exciting. I guess you don’t factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...
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Old March 17th, 2019, 05:37   #222
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https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/1...v-car-industry
The Germans don't want to give up on their diesels quite yet.
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Old March 17th, 2019, 05:50   #223
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Clearly youíve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines. Iíve driven each - the Model S three times (regular, duodrive, and really bleepiní fast), the X twice, and three of my friends have the Model 3. They are all world changing exciting. I guess you donít factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...
I look forward to finding such a car to replace my diesel 535d. So far, haven't seen one meet my criteria or driven one. The extra cost of the EV doesn't justify changing now, especially with my aversion to forced substantial taxpayer support of EV's. It would be nice to know if any manufacturer actually made a profit on EV sales and service.

The cost of air pollution to society is factored in by some as "subsidies" are legitimate topics, though, so kudos to the first-adopters. Too many compromises for my current needs.

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Old March 17th, 2019, 14:12   #224
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New technologies aren't for everyone. Shoot, my mother still struggles to send off text messages.
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Old March 17th, 2019, 15:37   #225
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Clearly youíve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines. Iíve driven each - the Model S three times (regular, duodrive, and really bleepiní fast), the X twice, and three of my friends have the Model 3. They are all world changing exciting. I guess you donít factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...
Model S
MSRP: From $76,000

Model 3
MSRP: From $42,900

I and most people will never buy a car that expensive. Electricity isn't free, tune ups on the diesel don't really exist either and need no software updates. I just need transportation not an Indy car, like most people.
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