DPF regen monitoring

dardares · Nov 25, 2017

Hi,

I've an Golf TDi 2015. I'm using vag dpf pro on android to monitor the dpf.

Have few question about it. I notice the regen never occur before 100% of soot loading. Why?

Noticed too, when a regen occur, it drop about to 23% before the regen stop. Why again? Why don't burn to 0?

Last one, i've Torque too on Android. I want to know the exact pid to have the same information as Vag dpf do. The reason is simple, i want to customize the information showed, and some other monitor than dpf. Read many forum, i don't find anything. I see an youtube video on which a guy get it to work whit torque, but don't give any information of how to do that. I found too a csv file that give me soot loading, but 93g according to it, rather than 8g as see in vag dpf.

Thank!

amitsekhon · Nov 26, 2017

dardares said:
Hi,
Have few question about it. I notice the regen never occur before 100% of soot loading. Why?
Noticed too, when a regen occur, it drop about to 23% before the regen stop. Why again? Why don't burn to 0?

The scale on Vagdpf is set from 0 to 24g of soot load.That's the point where car starts regeneration.
100% on Vagdpf does not mean the max possible soot load which i believe is around 45g .Developer has chosen 100% as the regen triggering point (which is 24g on our EA288 engine).I think its easy to understand too because one can have an idea after looking at the % reading that how far is car from initiating regen cycle.
Regarding your second question about the car not burning soot right upto 0gm,this is what the developer of the app answered as i asked him same question after finding my car ending regen cycle anywhere between 5g(~21%) to 6 g(25%).Regen ending point is not fixed but regen triggering point is fixed at 24g.

The ecu (vag engineers) prefers to stop the process when the value is low enough to consider the dpf cleaned instead of reach the perfect emptying in a very long time (with high fuel consumption, high engine temperature, and so on).

CrazyMonkey · Nov 30, 2017

dardares said:
Hi,
i've Torque too on Android. I want to know the exact pid to have the same information as Vag dpf do. The reason is simple, i want to customize the information showed, and some other monitor than dpf.

I would like to know this as well. I found "DPF Pressure" but it was reading like 300 psi, which I know is not correct. There is also one labeled "Exhaust Pressure"... I haven't tried that one yet. My thought was that maybe by monitoring the exhaust pressure, I could see when a regen was imminent. I don't see anything anything else that could be related to the DPF other than "DPF Temperature".

KERMA · Nov 30, 2017

There are several criteria for DPF regen

1) soot loading: This is usually the limiting factor and what triggers regen most (all) of the time. It is determined 2 ways, Measured soot and calculated soot. Measured soot comes from the d/p sensor. Calculated soot comes from the ECU's internal model, based on time and how much load is on the engine. You can see both of these numbers in VCDS. One thing you will likely notice, "calculated" soot is usually higher than "measured" soot. if you pay close attention, you will also see that "measured" soot can increase, and also decrease due to passive regen starting at ~350-400C. But "calculated" soot only increases with time and proportional to load. You will also recognize that regens are only triggered on "calculated" soot load. This is not only because the number is usually higher, but the ecu developers deemed it "more accurate". In the EA288 cars the trigger is set at 24g.

2) engine operating time: in this application the time is set to an impossibly high number like 32767 minutes of engine run time, so it will never trigger a regen.

3) Distance between regens, set at 750 km.

4) Fuel burned, setpoint is ~120 liters. About 30 gallons, so at 40 mpg that works out to about 1200 miles.

Each or any of these criteria could trigger a regen. Usually, it ends up being the dpf soot loading because that ends up being way more conservative than the other trigger points. After regen these counters are reset to zero.

DPF pressure reading is in hPa or millibar. So when you see 300 it is NOT 300 PSi, but 300 mbBar... more like 4 psi or so. 1 Bar = 14.7 psi

CrazyMonkey · Nov 30, 2017

KERMA said:
DPF pressure reading is in hPa or millibar. So when you see 300 it is NOT 300 PSi, but 300 mbBar... more like 4 psi or so. 1 Bar = 14.7 psi

Thanks for the reply. I wondered if it was reading mBar and the label in Torque was just wrong.

Maybe the Torque app just can't access the calculated and measured soot values?

Sad Panda · Dec 1, 2017

KERMA said:
There are several criteria for DPF regen

1) soot loading: This is usually the limiting factor and what triggers regen most (all) of the time. It is determined 2 ways, Measured soot and calculated soot. Measured soot comes from the d/p sensor. Calculated soot comes from the ECU's internal model, based on time and how much load is on the engine. You can see both of these numbers in VCDS. One thing you will likely notice, "calculated" soot is usually higher than "measured" soot. if you pay close attention, you will also see that "measured" soot can increase, and also decrease due to passive regen starting at ~350-400C. But "calculated" soot only increases with time and proportional to load. You will also recognize that regens are only triggered on "calculated" soot load. This is not only because the number is usually higher, but the ecu developers deemed it "more accurate". In the EA288 cars the trigger is set at 24g.

2) engine operating time: in this application the time is set to an impossibly high number like 32767 minutes of engine run time, so it will never trigger a regen.

3) Distance between regens, set at 750 km.

4) Fuel burned, setpoint is ~120 liters. About 30 gallons, so at 40 mpg that works out to about 1200 miles.

Each or any of these criteria could trigger a regen. Usually, it ends up being the dpf soot loading because that ends up being way more conservative than the other trigger points. After regen these counters are reset to zero.

DPF pressure reading is in hPa or millibar. So when you see 300 it is NOT 300 PSi, but 300 mbBar... more like 4 psi or so. 1 Bar = 14.7 psi

Thank you for the detailed info! You been able to change the settings for the calculated soot load yet on your tune files?

KERMA · Dec 1, 2017

Sad Panda said:
Thank you for the detailed info! You been able to change the settings for the calculated soot load yet on your tune files?

yepper.

You are probably due an update.

Sad Panda · Dec 1, 2017

KERMA said:
yepper.
You are probably due an update.

I will shoot you an email to see. That would be great because right now I am only getting 260 miles between regens, while DPF temp is generally 350+ my entire 100 mile commute.

sportwagen3 · Dec 1, 2017

KERMA said:
yepper.
You are probably due an update.

How often do you make updates to your tune? How would I know of I would need an update to my tune?

KERMA · Dec 1, 2017

sportwagen3 said:
How often do you make updates to your tune? How would I know of I would need an update to my tune?

easy way to find out: just shoot an e-mail to info@kermatdi.com or tuning@kermatdi.com for a status review. Or give the guys a call, always happy to chat on the phone.

Sad Panda · Dec 1, 2017

I have 25 email conversation with Charlie about previous stuff so I usually just reply to that, I never really thought about it but he probably has more important stuff to do than reply to me personally. He is awesome with quick replies with actual info though, you never get runaround answers.

dardares · Dec 2, 2017

Thank you for your answer. Sorry for the delay.

It more easy to understand how it work now. I worry less about missing a regen at 24g now, and the need of get the car serviced like the user manual said. Anyway, to now, i never missed it one time whit the apps.

And for torque, anyone know?

Thank again!

sportwagen3 · Mar 6, 2018

Anyone figure this out yet? Getting the exact PID in torque pro that is comparable to VAG DPF. I want to be able to display the information in Android Auto.

740GLE · Mar 7, 2018

sportwagen3 said:
Anyone figure this out yet? Getting the exact PID in torque pro that is comparable to VAG DPF. I want to be able to display the information in Android Auto.

Seconded

EECSentric · Mar 7, 2018

Thirded and subscribed.

Blue_Hen_TDI · Mar 9, 2018

KERMA said:
There are several criteria for DPF regen

1) soot loading: This is usually the limiting factor and what triggers regen most (all) of the time. It is determined 2 ways, Measured soot and calculated soot. Measured soot comes from the d/p sensor. Calculated soot comes from the ECU's internal model, based on time and how much load is on the engine. You can see both of these numbers in VCDS. One thing you will likely notice, "calculated" soot is usually higher than "measured" soot. if you pay close attention, you will also see that "measured" soot can increase, and also decrease due to passive regen starting at ~350-400C. But "calculated" soot only increases with time and proportional to load. You will also recognize that regens are only triggered on "calculated" soot load. This is not only because the number is usually higher, but the ecu developers deemed it "more accurate". In the EA288 cars the trigger is set at 24g.

2) engine operating time: in this application the time is set to an impossibly high number like 32767 minutes of engine run time, so it will never trigger a regen.

3) Distance between regens, set at 750 km.

4) Fuel burned, setpoint is ~120 liters. About 30 gallons, so at 40 mpg that works out to about 1200 miles.

Each or any of these criteria could trigger a regen. Usually, it ends up being the dpf soot loading because that ends up being way more conservative than the other trigger points. After regen these counters are reset to zero.

DPF pressure reading is in hPa or millibar. So when you see 300 it is NOT 300 PSi, but 300 mbBar... more like 4 psi or so. 1 Bar = 14.7 psi

Great post!

Mine is obviously triggering by soot load, because it regens every 240 miles for 11 minutes like clockwork.

If it is really cold, it may regen as low as 220 miles, but that was the lowest I've seen.

FWIW, I monitor with SG2.

amitsekhon · Mar 9, 2018

Blue_Hen_TDI said:
Great post!

it regens every 240 miles for 11 minutes like clockwork.

If it is really cold, it may regen as low as 220 miles, but that was the lowest I've seen.

FWIW, I monitor with SG2.

With pre dieselgate software you would have gone for sure 350 miles.Had first hand experience with it

Blue_Hen_TDI · Mar 9, 2018

amitsekhon said:
With pre dieselgate software you would have gone for sure 350 miles.Had first hand experience with it

I bought the 2015 fixed, but my 2012 Passat was exactly the same. Every 240 miles.

amitsekhon · Mar 9, 2018

Blue_Hen_TDI said:
I bought the 2015 fixed, but my 2012 Passat was exactly the same. Every 240 miles.

Distance between regens increased from approx 250kms to approx 400kms after reverting back to original software on my 2015 golf TDI.But didn't like the throttle response of older software.So updated back to 'fixed version' again.

KERMA · Mar 9, 2018

Little known fact: the factory does not allow the internal soot calculation model to consider the effects of passive regen on soot loading. That causes the regens to happen much more frequently. This can be seen by comparing the measured soot and calculated soot in vcds. There can be quite a divergence between the soot model and what is actually measured by the sensors!

One of the things we do(pretty sure it's exclusive) with the tune in the 2015 cars is enable the ecu to consider the effects of passive regen in the "calculated" model. This stretches out the interval to 750km or so. And there is less divergence between measured and calculated soot. Also improves fuel economy! the fuel economy benefits are especially with highway driving.

clacker · Mar 11, 2018

Our 2015 is going around 400 miles per event and have not found it doing any passive ones inbetween (I have had the SC2 in for a month but only drive it once in a while). Just real easy highway miles with lots of conditioners added. Possible or different software model?
Once the 2nd fix is done I will be investigating this stuff more and tunes...but not before.

meerschm · Mar 12, 2018

minor point, but the measured soot figure is also the output of a model inside the Engine computer.

the measured soot value is calculated using not just the DPF differential pressure, but also temperature and mass flow.

meerschm · Mar 12, 2018

How much fuel would you think a DPF regeneration takes?

740GLE · Mar 12, 2018

clacker said:
Our 2015 is going around 400 miles per event and have not found it doing any passive ones inbetween (I have had the SC2 in for a month but only drive it once in a while). Just real easy highway miles with lots of conditioners added. Possible or different software model?
Once the 2nd fix is done I will be investigating this stuff more and tunes...but not before.

I don't think you notice any passive regens by monitoring any EGTs. My understanding, it's more of a point where soot doesn't accumulate any more as the EGTs temps burn as it's being building up. Maybe if you look at the calculated/measured value and notice it not climbing as the miles roll on, then you know a passive regen is happening.

Yet again why these cars great for long highway runs, specially with hot ambient temps, the MPGs keeps climbing under a passive regen and from my experience anything over 40 miles is the sweet spot for economy.

GreenLantern_TDI · Mar 12, 2018

My regens are Always 20 minutes at 1800 rpm or above (highway speeds). The amount of cold starts seems to affect milage in which regens occure. Winter weather 220- 240 miles. Warmer weather 240-280 miles. Havent seen summer weather yet.

St.Hubbins · Mar 12, 2018

KERMA said:
Little known fact: the factory does not allow the internal soot calculation model to consider the effects of passive regen on soot loading. That causes the regens to happen much more frequently. This can be seen by comparing the measured soot and calculated soot in vcds. There can be quite a divergence between the soot model and what is actually measured by the sensors!
One of the things we do(pretty sure it's exclusive) with the tune in the 2015 cars is enable the ecu to consider the effects of passive regen in the "calculated" model. This stretches out the interval to 750km or so. And there is less divergence between measured and calculated soot. Also improves fuel economy! the fuel economy benefits are especially with highway driving.

i haven't been monitoring regens per se, but have noticed over 6 months of driving the interval between them are very short compared with my '10 Golf.
granted, it's been mostly city miles, but the intervals are nowhere near the 250ish miles being mentioned here.
i'm awaiting (impatiently) delivery of the Q loader, and look forward to seeing an increased interval with the tune.

EECSentric · Mar 21, 2018

sportwagen3 said:
Anyone figure this out yet? Getting the exact PID in torque pro that is comparable to VAG DPF. I want to be able to display the information in Android Auto.

Sorry to ping this one again, but may I ask if anyone has the PIDs and conversion factors available?

Thanks,
-James

Diesl · Mar 23, 2018

Torque soot PID

I posted this stuff a while ago, and also tested it in a 2015 TDI. The PID is 06B2 (that's mode 6), and you are looking for the data after the B2C5 marker. The exact offset seems to vary depending on the model, but either R40/R41 or R49/R50 should work. See the thread linked from my signature, http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5381291.

alvisnigals · Dec 12, 2018

Sudden spike on soot mass (VAG DPF)

Hi,
I'm very new to this forum so please accept my apologies if my post somehow doesn't meet a standard

I'm monitoring my DPF regen with VAG DPF app and I have noticed some strange behavior.. On steady motorway drive ~100km/h soot is slowly accumulated around 55mg/km, and then suddenly soot mass jumps from 25% to 88% and the regeneration is triggered and this happens every 40 - 60km
Has anyone encountered similar issue? Any idea what could be wrong?
No fault codes or warning lights yet.

740GLE · Dec 12, 2018

I have an excel file that works for all the EGR temps, tired soot a while ago and gave up, would this calc work?

Code:

Name	ShortName	ModeAndPID	Equation	Min Value	Max Value	Units	Header;
VW Soot	Soot	         06b2         	((R40<8)+R41)/100	0	25	          Gr	auto;

DPF regen monitoring

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