'09 and later TDIs to be effectively banned in Iowa?

eb2143

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kcfoxie said:
MOOT point, it's a MOOT point... grrrr!!! Sorry, I just see "mute" point a lot on here. It's not a silent point, it's not a practical point!
Thanks. Grammar drives me nuts too...
 

grizzlydiesel

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whitedog said:
Mine did too at times, but they are both gone now.
LMAO!! i wont lie, took me a minute to get it, kinda sad, but still funny.

as to the article i posted, its actually quite interesting. Im not sure if the DPF used for testing is in any way similar to the ones on the 2009 TDi's, but the results seemed to show that the biodiesel did indeed lower PM emissions by 67% over a standard diesel with a DPF. and lowered the temperature required for regeneration, meaning that passive systems would be possible, and active ones may function less often.

granted ive only read the summary, and have not read the whole report, but from that, it seems that biodiesel blends may actually be good for DPF function ?!?!?!?!:confused:
 

The Chris

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kcfoxie said:
This is the same company that said all automatics sold from 1999 to 2004 had lifetime transmission fluid that never needed to be replaced. You have more faith than I do in them.
Just do what they did back in the 70s where they had two different pumps for leaded/unleaded. Make the non-biodiesel a little more and more expensive which gently pushes customers to bio-diesel. It also gives manufacturers time to change their product to work with the new fuel.

As for the transmission statement, if you don't have faith in VW, why the hell did you buy one?
And for the record, I have been running B100 in my 06 Jetta for the past 15k miles.
 

kcfoxie

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The Chris said:
Just do what they did back in the 70s where they had two different pumps for leaded/unleaded. Make the non-biodiesel a little more and more expensive which gently pushes customers to bio-diesel. It also gives manufacturers time to change their product to work with the new fuel.

As for the transmission statement, if you don't have faith in VW, why the hell did you buy one?
And for the record, I have been running B100 in my 06 Jetta for the past 15k miles.
I'm saying I don't believe in the owner's manual. I believe in german engineering (it is certainly NOT limited to the VW brand).

I've had many VWs and I've used B100 for 60k consecutive miles in my 2006 with no ill effects. We had a 20k or so diesel splurge and now we're back to B100 every other tank again.

I bought the VW, honestly, because I needed an appliance that was efficient. This Jetta is NOT the car I wanted, but with a $2k difference I would be a fool to have bought another New Beetle.... I wanted it more, but the Jetta made more sense long haul (I didn't care for the 2006 re-design or I would have gotten the bug and said to hell with the resell).

I just have a problem with any company knowingly lying to its customer base. It's no different than Ford, they have done similar stunts with certain models over the year - and some/much of it is dealer by dealer. I called all the ones in NC and was told "it isn't required for your car" when any mechanics knows you have to replace transmission fluid eventually, no fluid lasts forever in a transmission of all places.

If Hyndai offered me a diesel hatchback, or even a small 2wd suv, i'd have bought it over the jetta. but the only diesel i could get my hands on was the vw, and at the time the new car was cheaper than getting a used wagon with high miles. I went for what made the most economic sense and didn't follow my heart.

So forgive me for being pragmatic about the decision and less than gaga over VW and their recommendations about things, they are a company out to make a profit and has publically stated they intent to be the world's #1 seller in 9 years -- outpacing both Toyota and GM. I dunno, call me skeptical.
 

grizzlydiesel

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farking cool.....

apparently in the read, the rise in NOx actually HELPS the regeneration of the DPF, so the biodiesel really wins out in every category. Something about the NO2 being more reactive than oxygen at lower temperatures, so it oxydizes the soot better in the filter.
 

TDIMeister

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grizzlydiesel said:
So looking at those numbers, one could assume, that the 2009 CR would pass Bin 5 on B100, everything is good as is, but would go DOWN with the B100, except for NOx, which would rise by approximately 10%, call it 20% and its still .01g/mile below the Bin 5 standard. The only real question would be if the PM rating would allow the removal of the DPF.
The point in the first place was, you want a car to run on B100 without the aftertreatment systems and necessary post injection, which is persona non grata.

A 2009 TDI running without the aftertreatment systems, on B100, even with increased EGR as Lug_Nut proposes, will not meet T2B5. It comes down to something called the "PM-NOx Trade-off" There is a functional relationship between PM and NOx emissions that looks like a hyperbolic curve. On a given technology, you can only move along this trade-off curve through calibration; any measure to reduce NOx will increase PM and vice-versa. Moving the trade-off curves toward the origin (simulataneously reducing PM and NOx) requires added technology and measures. When you see how small the PM/NOx limits are in the T2B5 regs in relation to the current state-of-the-art engine technology without aftertreatment, you realise how far you're still out. I'm looking for this illustration and will post it when I find it.
 

TDIMeister

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Following is an example of an NOx-PM trade-off graph. I have a better one from VW somewhere but can't find it at the moment, but this will suffice to illustrate the point. As I said in the previous post, for a given engine technology, you can move up or down any single curve. Moving the curve itself requires entirely new technologies or measures.



The box near the bottom left shows the boundary limits of NOx and PM, respectively, for Euro 6. T2B5 is roughly half the size of the Euro 6 envelope, since T2B5 allows about half the NOx that Euro 6 allows. Current state-of-the-art engine technology allows one to squeak within Euro 4 without a DPF or NOx catalyst on D2. Using B100 will certainly bring the PM limits down, and conceivably calibration measures (e.g. increased EGR and retarded injection timing) will reduce NOx at some expense of PM along a new new constant trade-off curve. But it will still be far away from meeting Euro 6 let alone T2B5.
 

grizzlydiesel

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read the rest, thats what the study showed, that with the biodiesel, the NOx increases, which helps treat the soot trapped in the DPF. the regeneration was faster, and would allow a DPF without active regen, which would remove the need for the "afterburners", weather or not the urea would be needed im not sure from the numbers, however if the NOx is reacting with the soot to oxidize it, i would imagine that chemical reaction would reduce the NOx emissions.... that whole conservation of mass and whatnot.
 

TDIMeister

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I have read the rest, and I've also read similar research done by my own employer. Passive regeneration of the DPF is fine and good, but the challenge in the context of North American light-duty (i.e. passenger car) emissions regulations is NOx, far more so than PM is.

Even if the DPF can be regenerated passively, a NOx-storage catalyst by the very fundamentals of how it works will require periodic operation at Lambda <1. Now, this could be achieved without post-injection, by injecting fuel directly in the exhaust upstream of the LNT, but there are problems associated with this, as any owner of an early `96 Passat TDI will tell you.
 
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ikendu said:
Well, it is good to hear an account from someone that lives there (I live in Iowa). Although, its the first time I've heard the situation framed quite like this: "Don't worry too much about the boreal forest. Amazonian forest is way nicer than the forest we are destroying in Canada!" Interesting take. :)

YouTube has a nice fly over produced from Google Earth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plcWmMsS7T4

Notice the large holding ponds (these are big). Hmmm... what's in there? I believe it is water that was once pure and fresh, but now is toxic from being used to cook tar out of the sand. Seems to me I remember reading about ducks or geese that land on these ponds and die. Probably no big deal.

YouTube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGVcoyIFnM

Funny thing about water. It tends to flow all over the Earth, carrying whatever it has picked along the way to other places. Kinda like the MTBE that got into the water supply in so many places.

Someday, the Tar Sand will be depleted. Then we will have a left over legacy. I wonder what the water table will be like?

The funny thing is, oil will run out some day. When it does, we'll have to figure out other ways to move our cars around. I bet we do. I wonder if we should just wait until then to do anything?
You may have to do some more homework!
The so called forest there is made up of little pecker pole trees no bigger than 4 inches at the trunk.
The land is all swamp and has a surface only water table where water tries to run to a river somewhere over the land surface.
It cant go down into the ground like normal places because it cant seep down though the layer of tarsand.
Trust me if you thought you could go there and build a cabin and dig a well for your water, you sure wouldnt like the taste of your coffee and the black ring around your neck from your bath water!
The tailings water you see in the little movies is never allowed to leave the site.
It is allways recycled and new water brought into the plant to make up for evaporation.
The flock of ducks caught them off guard.
They normally have propane cannons that fire of a big bang every few minutes around the ponds to scare them off but apparently these ducks were ahead of the norm and unexpected.
The report you saw was using the word toxic quite heavy.
The release agent to remove the tar from the sand is very close to laundry detergent.
The tailings ponds always have a little residual tar float to the top and collect on the edges.
The ducks didnt land in that stuff but instead swam to the edge and into it!
They should just get the duck version of a darwin award!
In reality the athabaska river system has been washing the tar sand into the arctic ocean for millions of years.
Some say more than a hundred thousand times the amount mined so far!
Hey, I am as green as the next guy but common sense also says you are not going to plant your tomatoes next to anything to do with oil, natural or otherwise.
Also now I think I know why ducks are so greasy when you cook them!:D
 

ikendu

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Fst-switchback said:
The so called forest there is made up of little pecker pole trees no bigger than 4 inches at the trunk.
Meaning... a natural ecosystem simply so lousy that it is OK to destory with pit mines?

Fst-switchback said:
...[water] cant go down into the ground like normal places because it cant seep down though the layer of tarsand..
Except now we have collection wells that offer a pathway below the top surface? I suppose the pit mines themselves must open up some pathway.

Fst-switchback said:
The tailings water you see in the little movies is never allowed to leave the site.
Kinda like the huge coal ash combustion holding ponds that never leave the site (except when it does)?
A billion gallons of coal ash sludge spilled into the Emory River
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/01/10-3

Fst-switchback said:
They should just get the duck version of a darwin award!
Hmm... too bad nature hasn't bred smarter ducks.

I guess that Tar Sands area in Canada is simply a pretty lousy place to begin with that has really dumb wildlife and water so polluted already that it is OK to make it worse. Sort of sum it up?

If enough money is involved, we can always figure out a rational scheme that makes every thing seem ok.
 
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ikendu

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whitedog said:
Are there tarsands in Iowa? I ask since this thread WAS about Iowa.
Nope. No Tar Sands in Iowa.

In Iowa, we grow soy beans to crush for animal feed. The soy oil by-product can help Iowans reduce their use of oil imported from the Middle East (costs us $5/gal to protect the flow) or from the Tar Sands in Canada (where we pit mine swampy, lousy forests and increase CO2 by cooking tar out with natural gas).

You are correct. No Tar Sands in Iowa. The Tar Sands discussion got started when a Canadian decryed forest destruction in some other country for fuel.
 

ikendu

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whitedog said:
And y'all ran with it...

Shall we get back on point now? :)
Sure. Glad you are here to get all the non- "Iowa, biodiesel mandate" posts back on track. :)
 

tdisky

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Thanks, guys.

I really don't think that ASTM-spec B20 is going to do any damage to an '09. Why? Just a feeling. That's why I'm going to gradually increase the B starting at 10,000 miles (of course under the clinical supervision of a doctor) to B10 for 10k then B20. UOA's every 5k.

I applaud Iowa for doing the right thing. Let's stop this pussyfooting around. And no, I don't have a few thousand to "throw away" on this experiment. If the oil dilution is too high, I'll just back off the blend.
 

whitedog

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Whether it will run and whether it will be warrantied are different stories though. I wasn't there, but as I understand it, VW didn't warranty high percentages of Bio in the ALH engines, but it runs just fine.
 

MBoni

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tdisky said:
Thanks, guys.

I really don't think that ASTM-spec B20 is going to do any damage to an '09. Why? Just a feeling. That's why I'm going to gradually increase the B starting at 10,000 miles (of course under the clinical supervision of a doctor) to B10 for 10k then B20. UOA's every 5k.

I applaud Iowa for doing the right thing. Let's stop this pussyfooting around. And no, I don't have a few thousand to "throw away" on this experiment. If the oil dilution is too high, I'll just back off the blend.
tdisky, I think you are right that running quality B20 is acceptable in our engines, given the 2 tests with B100 and a couple other users on B20 so far. Doing frequent UOA is the right approach, since the primary problem identified so far is oil contamination. Biodiesel will contaminate your engine oil much faster than standard diesel, due to the post-injection process.

However, a big word of warning: most oil analysis methods don't do a good job of identifying the actual contamination level of BioD in the oil, which is exactly the problem you are trying to identify. And since we've got a 10k oil change interval, doing your analysis at 5k may be the wrong time to look, you probably want to see how things look at 7-8k, which is when an early oil change is likely to be needed.

I'm getting close to the 10k mark myself, so I may consider looking for my local B20 sources sometime soon.
 

tdisky

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MBoni said:
However, a big word of warning: most oil analysis methods don't do a good job of identifying the actual contamination level of BioD in the oil, which is exactly the problem you are trying to identify. And since we've got a 10k oil change interval, doing your analysis at 5k may be the wrong time to look, you probably want to see how things look at 7-8k, which is when an early oil change is likely to be needed.
Good point. OK, I'll do a UOA at 5k, 10k (on B5) then 15k, 17.5k and 20k (on B10), so on for B20 after 20k.

Thanks for the idea.
 

SUNRG

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this thread is funny.

by 2015 the ASTM BioD and manufacturer fuel specs may be aligned. and / or VW and end users may have determined that B20 use is CR TDIs is fine.

but i do see the value in getting panties all bunched up *now* over something that will probably not be an issue in *6 years*. :rolleyes:
 

bobgolf2004

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Iowa can certainly pass whatever legislation they want. Being able to enforce it is another matter. And by enforcing it, I mean getting Congress and/or federal courts to go along with it. For example, being a Wisconsin resident, I might want to take drive in my '09 Jetta TDI through Iowa. If using b20 or b25 in a '09 Jetta TDI will ruin the emission control system, I probably am in violation of some federal law. If this is true, I doubt a federal court would have to think very long before issuing an injunction preventing implementation of Iowa's new law on several different grounds.
 

ikendu

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Just my $.02:

I live in Iowa. It seems very unlikely that Iowa will pass a diesel mandate for B20.

My guess is that we are having a lot of talk about something that will not likely happen.
 

DoctorDawg

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ikendu said:
I live in Iowa. It seems very unlikely that Iowa will pass a diesel mandate for B20.
That would be great, ikendu (if it proves correct). I'm likely as big a tree-hugger as anyone on this board, which is why I resent ill-informed yahoos tryin' to forcibly shove 'green' down peoples' throats even when it will manifestly harm them (just to line somebody's pockets). Just doesn't do the cause any good.
 
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ikendu

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DoctorDawg said:
... I resent ill-informed yahoos tryin' to forcibly shove 'green' down peoples' throats...
If this has any traction at all, it would be due to the biodiesel lobby trying to expand the market. It wouldn't really have anything to do with "green". I toured a B100 plant here in Iowa and asked the staff if any owned diesel vehicles. They did. Then I asked, are you all using your B100 product? None were. The owners and staff... are just in it for the money. Not for green.

Those of us that use biodiesel for being "green" want to use B100 as much as possible. With today's soy biodiesel, you couldn't mandate B100 so... I figure anything past a national mandate for B5 (which would tap out our supplies of soy biodiesel) would be nonsensical.
 
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ikendu

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Here is an email I got today (later, I read the bill, it does indeed get to a B20 mandate ...not a good idea):

The Iowa Legislature is working to boost the state’s economy by enacting a B5 Biodiesel Standard.
 
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nesdon

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B99 in 2009 TDI

I'm surprised by VW's position, but expect it is mostly CYA for loose screws behind the wheel. Looking at the BS with B99 reblending and the necessity of registering to buy B99/100, not to mention the active and admitted conspiracy of oil interests in many other venues to protect their investments and fortunes, I suspect there is a lot of political nonsense around these issues.

I took the plunge and bought a 2009 Jetta TDI I plan to run on B99. My understanding is that the only issue is that the lower volatility of B99 over D2 causes an accumulation of B99 dilution in the crankcase.

Issues of seal deterioration would be present even with B5, and I have seen only very minimal problems with this even in my '81 caddy, and none in my '98 TDI. Many others have reported the same reliability of the pump, plumbing and seal systems with B100 in many other VW's including pre PD TDI's. I think absent gelling and increased viscosity at low temps (especially given that the new fuel filters are heated), there are likely no other issues to be confronted beyond the post-injection lube oil dilution problem.

Even this problem of oil dilution from regen post injection seems relatively small, and likely easily managed by a decreased oil change interval. Due to particulate contamination of lube oil in diesel engines, I have always halved the recomended oil change interval in all my diesels, as do many mechanics. Increasing that to a third of the recommended cycle, 3000 miles, which is the interval I have used in all my more modern engines (I have used 1500 in older and worn engines).

With the reported 300 mile regen interval, that is 10 regens in a 3000 mile oil change interval. With a gallon of oil in the crankcase, how high can the dilution possibly get? I understand that with Canola (rapeseed) based B100 in Europe, VW is fully warranting the vehicles. The difference between soy and canola based B100 would mostly likely be only of gel point and temp. dependent viscosity rather than vapor pressure, lubricity or solvent action.

The data, the best I can find, here:

www.biodieselconference.org/20...hnical Johnson.pdf -

while superficially alarming, is so poorly scaled as to be fairly useless without the accompanying text and more complete graphics. Poor Ed Tufte would be disgusted by this.

Surely the rings cannot possibly be that porous, altho at the low pressure of the exhaust stroke, especially with an unbroken-in engine, it could be a significant portion of the injection volume. Injection volume is reported by the VAG COM, so I will monitor this as much as I can and see what I get. I'm planning to use a small dedicated tablet so that I can continuously monitor and capture the ECM data.

I think I may wait until after my first 3K mile, probably even my 10K oil change before switching to allow a more complete break-in. The rings after all are really the only engine component actually needing a break-in

In my experience running both B99 and D2 in a number of engines, including stationary gensets, I have observed that the particulate mass for B99 is significantly below D2. I have also seen serious filter clogging by wax crystals with even very good home brew, tho not with commercial ASTM B99. Gel points seem to vary widely. I suspect this may be the cause of the CEL reported by Neurot, as there is a specific particulate filter warning light.

I'm wondering if a chip tuner could reduce the scheduled regen frequency to suit the lower particulate with B99? There is a pressure differential sender shown in the illustrations, obviously used to trigger the DPF warning light, but I presume also as a secondary threshold to trigger regen cycles beyond the mileage scheduled regens.

I anticipate that here in warm So Cal, with a 3K mile oil change interval and ASTM virgin soy B99, I will have little trouble.

I will report all the data I can. I suspect I can catch the regen on my Vag Com by injection volume. I will try and capture and graph a regen event to get some hard numbers on the volume change and potential oil dilution rates.

I would think that VW would have made the cars B99 compatible if possible, but again, they need to build cars capable of being reliably operated by idiots. If I were testing these engines for fuel recommendations relating to warranty issues, (especially given the stringent emission control warranties required in CA) I would use a worst case standard, and might therefore specifically prohibit the use of B11 and above, as VW has done in the 50 state cars. As a certified non-idiot, I have some faith I can manage this system reliably.

Time will tell. Stay tuned.
 
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