samwoodblack
Spammer-Banned
I don't think that hybrid cars are so ecological. Because at the first we haven't got ways to utilize batteries and at the second when you charge them heat pollution is on.
Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability
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JSWTDI09
Top Post Dawg
I do not understand what you mean by "Because at the first we haven't got ways to utilize batteries". We utilize the batteries by powering the motor(s). Also "heat pollution" is pretty much negligible. The most serious ecological issue with electric and hybrid cars is the ecological damage done by mining and processing the Lithium to make the batteries in the first place, plus any carbon footprint from the generation of the electricity used to charge the batteries.
In other words, the ecological issues unique to electric/hybrid cars are mostly battery related, but not really in the terms you describe.
Have Fun!
Don
bwilson4web
Well-known member
Reasons for owning a hybrid or EV:
- cheaper to drive - 1/2 to 1/4th the cost of ICE cars
- cheaper to maintain - fewer or no oil changes, brakes last the life of the car, fewer or no air filter changes
- quiet - little or no engine noise and vibration
- shame when lights change - for our Tesla in 'chill' mode, we get across first and choose the lane we want
tikal
Veteran Member
No doubt that the higher the price of energy for people transportation needs the bigger return on investment to pay a premium for a more efficient/cleaner vehicle such as a light duty diesel, a gasoline hybrid or an EV one.
Since the US has one of the lowest cost of refined hydrocarbons then a noticeable transition to more efficient/cleaner vehicles such as EVs is going to take a while.
Since the US has one of the lowest cost of refined hydrocarbons then a noticeable transition to more efficient/cleaner vehicles such as EVs is going to take a while.
casioqv
Veteran Member
Depends on your electricity price... here in California the electricity costs about the same a diesel for a TDI, but EV maintenance is cheaper.
dremd
Veteran Member
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Hello fellow EV+ ALH driver!
Just for interest, what’s your electric rate?
I’m between $0.06 and $0.07/ kWh (depends on season) in Louisiana. Tesla does 2.8 miles/ KWh or better (Leaf does 4) so $0.25 / mile or $0.017/ mile
My 03 Jetta 6mt realistically gets 40 Mpg
Diesel seems to be $2.75 / gallon here so $0.067 / mile
Diesel in my case is 2.7 times as expensive to operate than my P85 and nearly 4 times as expensive to fuel as the Leaf.
That said, my Tesla tire cost is quite high.
casioqv
Veteran Member
We start at $0.22/kWh for a very low baseline usage, and then as you use more the rate climbs to $0.28/kWh and then $0.49/kWh. Most homes will be in the middle, at $0.28/kWh. There are special EV plans that roughly double the daytime rate, and cut the night rate in half.
In short, your diesel is 1/4 the cost of electricity, but our electricity is 4x what yours is so they're about the same.
casioqv
Veteran Member
I posted some specific numbers comparing my TDI to e-Golf here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5520717#post5520717
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Autopilot fail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r4nS5EjjQ&feature=player_embedded
Don't be complacent about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r4nS5EjjQ&feature=player_embedded
Don't be complacent about it.
dremd
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Yeah, Driver fail. Autopilot does not currently recognize construction markers.
We will get there, but not yet.
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
That's great (not). Half the state of Texas roads are under construction.
Orange barrels everywhere!
Tin Man
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To think that a computer can be gifted with the subtle yet completely tested and very effective pattern recognition capability of a billion years of human evolution is pure arrogant IT style folly. I've always said that the 10% of the population that is alcoholic would love self-driving cars....
casioqv
Veteran Member
Neural nets were about as good as humans at recognizing objects they were specifically trained for ~5 years ago, they're way way past us now. The main thing is they can get more experience than humans ever could- they can learn from more data than a human could ever process. Of course, there's a lot more to driving a car than classifying photos.
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nwdiver
Veteran Member
True... which is why machine algorithms ‘evolve’ except a generation is measured in milliseconds instead of decades so they can ‘evolve’ billions of years in a few years. That’s how speech recognition improved.
Machine learning is ‘natural’ selection on crack and sped up ~1Bx.
Tin Man
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That's exactly why you IT lovers should board an autonomous airplane, you know, no human pilot, the one that does the machine language by itself.
nwdiver
Veteran Member
Gladly; Humans cause crashes. Machines cause crashes. Human error is far more likely than a computer error and that disparity is only going to increase;
Although I can see this becoming a bit like vaccines. Why do we have a measles vaccine when we no one here has measles (Yeah, 'cause everyone is vaccinated)? Why do we let computers fly when every crash is caused by a computer (Yeah, 'cause humans are rarely at the controls).
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GoFaster
Moderator at Large
You've clearly never operated a CNC machine. They're capable of cranking out parts in a big hurry. They're also capable of making scrap in a big hurry.
The computer only does what a human programs it to do.
"Machine learning"? It can only "learn" what a human programs it to be able to "learn". It can't think outside the box when something happens that it wasn't programmed to handle.
Famously, AI is hard - "Hard" being programmer-speak for nigh-on impossible.
The computer only does what a human programs it to do.
"Machine learning"? It can only "learn" what a human programs it to be able to "learn". It can't think outside the box when something happens that it wasn't programmed to handle.
Famously, AI is hard - "Hard" being programmer-speak for nigh-on impossible.
Tin Man
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bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
OK, so I'll preface this by saying that I think automated driving is a harder problem than Tesla thinks it is: the point of machine learning is that you don't program it to be able to learn specific things, you train it to do certain behaviors based on its inputs.
The problem shifts from one of programming responses to stimuli, to determining problems and training the neural net to solve problems.
(The problem with that is that you then have to identify the correct problems, and train it properly, and there are a lot of problems with driving that throw off humans even.)
The problem shifts from one of programming responses to stimuli, to determining problems and training the neural net to solve problems.
(The problem with that is that you then have to identify the correct problems, and train it properly, and there are a lot of problems with driving that throw off humans even.)
tikal
Veteran Member
Before we get even into the technicalities of AI and software 'controlling everything I suggested there is something that predates that: human behavior and our egos.
Do you see on a rainy/stormy day and fairly dense traffic drivers on large SUVs/pickup trucks driving 70, 80 or more MPH as it is a sunny day with no wind and no traffic, construction zone, etc. !
The perception of these drivers is: 'I have a large vehicle, there is no problem driving it 70 , 80 or MPH on a super rainy day. I feel safe, I own the road!
And I am not talking about necessarily a 'super techie' SUV/pickup truck with anything close to having auto pilot!
Now translate that to somebody who paid $$$ or $$$$ for a vehicle with the latest autopilot, AI, you named. Are you also perhaps tempted that 'you also own the road'?
Do you see on a rainy/stormy day and fairly dense traffic drivers on large SUVs/pickup trucks driving 70, 80 or more MPH as it is a sunny day with no wind and no traffic, construction zone, etc. !
The perception of these drivers is: 'I have a large vehicle, there is no problem driving it 70 , 80 or MPH on a super rainy day. I feel safe, I own the road!
And I am not talking about necessarily a 'super techie' SUV/pickup truck with anything close to having auto pilot!
Now translate that to somebody who paid $$$ or $$$$ for a vehicle with the latest autopilot, AI, you named. Are you also perhaps tempted that 'you also own the road'?
Tin Man
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Yes, natural selection continues to this very day.
https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2017-09.html
https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2017-09.html
nicklockard
Torque Dorque
On the state of electric vehicles and their viability: as of mid 2019, they are still toys for rich boys principally. When Tesla first released the S model sedan, I cheered because I realized that only deep-pocketed vanguards could float such a radical concept. But when the model 3 came out (6 ish years later?) and didn't compete with the (at the time, cheapest of their model lineup) 3-series BMW it was aimed at, I groaned. Still too pricey, and no hatchback? Stupid choice, imo. Before you start nitpicking pricing of a 3 series versus a model 3, consider that BMW has kept ahead of them by releasing a cheaper, smaller 2-series.
Chevy Bolt, BMW i3, and other electric cars still look so stupid, like they're styled by drunk college students.
Maybe in 5 or 7 years I will be able to pay cash for an electric car worth owning--not sure, but we'll see.
Chevy Bolt, BMW i3, and other electric cars still look so stupid, like they're styled by drunk college students.
Maybe in 5 or 7 years I will be able to pay cash for an electric car worth owning--not sure, but we'll see.
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compu_85
Gadget Guy
Sorry you're going to have to unpack that a bit for me...
BMW is ahead of Tesla because although the Tesla Model 3 and BMW 3 series are priced competitively now, BMW has released a smaller, cheaper car? And the Tesla doesn't have a hatch, but the BMW doesn't either?
I just priced a 330iX, and with similar options to our Tesla it came to $47,350. A Model 3 LR AWD is $49,990, before incentives. The BMW has over 100 less hp, is 1 second slower 0-60, and is less than half as efficient. Oh, and the Tesla is bigger inside, too.
-J
BMW is ahead of Tesla because although the Tesla Model 3 and BMW 3 series are priced competitively now, BMW has released a smaller, cheaper car? And the Tesla doesn't have a hatch, but the BMW doesn't either?
I just priced a 330iX, and with similar options to our Tesla it came to $47,350. A Model 3 LR AWD is $49,990, before incentives. The BMW has over 100 less hp, is 1 second slower 0-60, and is less than half as efficient. Oh, and the Tesla is bigger inside, too.
-J
35 Yr Dsl Veteran
Veteran Member
I don't know about that, my son took the family on a trip from Portland, OR to Calgary, AB and back in his Tesla w/o any issues. Stopped for lunch and charging, and then was on back his way.
tikal
Veteran Member
Repeat after me: SUVs, SUVs, SUVs!
I am willing to accept that, even with this scenario, might be naive for me to consider it looking at current gasoline prices in the US!
For road trips in America you need an electrical SUV competitively priced: meaning if the gasoline powered SUV costs around $30,000 the electrical SUV will cost at most $40,000 (33% premium).
I am willing to accept that, even with this scenario, might be naive for me to consider it looking at current gasoline prices in the US!
kjclow
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Coming across central Indiana yesterday, I'm reminded that people have been using solar power for the millennia that we have occupied this little blue marble. In Amish country, every house had a clothes line full of laundry while letting the sun do it's work.
nwdiver
Veteran Member
Yep. Now we just need to be smart enough to use fresh solar energy for everything. Power the HVAC, TV, charge the car...... We've been using stale solar energy for centuries, just cut out the middle man.
I used <800kWh driving from NM to WA last weekend. The PV system I finished installing right before I left will have produced >800kWh by the end of next week....
Or Iraq veterans like me that saw the cost of our pathetic addiction to oil first hand and accept the fact we need to move to a more responsible source of energy ASAP.... it's called the Tesla-stretch from reason...
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tikal
Veteran Member
And wait for the cost of [FONT=Comic Sans MS, Arial]Hydrocarbon fuels[/FONT] to go up and up and up and stay there for some years to come ...
Then the 'grass will be greener on the other side' !
Then the 'grass will be greener on the other side' !
casioqv
Veteran Member
The problem you're mentioning is on it's head now- modern deep learning exhibits true creativity, and does outside the box things no human could ever imagine.
We're into the classic genie problem with machine learning now: when you 'wish' for something via a mathematical objective, deep learning tends to reach that objective in a way we never anticipated, and never wanted. We can't program a neural network to do anything, we can only set an objective and train it to reach the objective. See paperclip maximizer
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kjclow
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Last week on RAGBRAI, I witnessed a smart use of solar power. One guy was riding his ebike from LA to Buffalo. He had a trailer set up with two 4x2 solar panels in a roof pitch over the trailer. Stored his camping gear under the panels. He was able to capture enough power to give e-assist for 40-45 miles a day and keep his other electronics charged. E-assist on a bike can be turned on and off and is used primarily for hill climbing. His plan is to be in Buffalo by mid-September. He has to stop in Detroit for a few days for pictures with some of his sponsors.
With the new super conductors and capacitors mentioned a few posts back, having a solar grid built into the roof of the car is starting to make more sense. Charge the car while on the go and stop at local charging stations to keep the batteries topped off.
With the new super conductors and capacitors mentioned a few posts back, having a solar grid built into the roof of the car is starting to make more sense. Charge the car while on the go and stop at local charging stations to keep the batteries topped off.
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