TDI WVO Damage survey

Stig - now THAT's the post I've been looking for.
Thanks for your honest, first-hand insight.

I'm actually doing it. I've just crossed the 10,000 mile mark with my Pasast 2005 PD running on WVO and B100. You can read all about it in my blog getoffoil.blogspot.com.

getoffoil said:

I'm actually doing it. I've just crossed the 10,000 mile mark with my Pasast 2005 PD running on WVO and B100. You can read all about it in my blog getoffoil.blogspot.com.

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Isn't that funny?!

Hello getoff-

You'll notice that one of the first few posts in the thread links to a journal of usage and problems (much of which is not related to WVO anyway) and uses that as the example of why NOT to do WVO. And the blog it points to is YOURS!!

And then someone said "after reading THAT, anyone who would do WVO is $&*#%%^$#" or something to that effect.

Truthfully, anyone who reads thru your blog should find NO reasons in there not to do WVO. I applaud you for blogging it so dilligently!!

Of course 10,000 miles does not a certification make, but I for one look forward to your continued blog.

I made some notes after reading your blog the other night. CraigReece (of Plantdrive) just told me the other day that he believes it is safe to switch over within a minute in the summer, and two minutes in the winter, and that any potential damage that could be done by some improperly burned fuel from injecting WVO in before the cylinders were fully up to temp would burn off -- as long as the car was run fully warm for a while after that (meaning you don't switch over in 1 minute, and then drive just a couple of miles and stop).

This has been the topic of hot debate recently. There are studies that do show that you really want the engine fully up to temp before you inject WVO in it. Craig says that they have *many* customers who have been doing it his way for years and many miles, and that none have ever reported any problems.

I have seen a TDI motor damaged from running WVO in it cold, and so I am always wary of too early switching over. I do not have proof other than the one I've seen -- and that one was run cold continuously, NOT like what Craig said.

But as I said a few posts back, some of the problems I HAVE seen are when users begin some bad habits (of any kind), and then become complacent about them just because it doesn't seem to be harming anything in the here and now. A BigMac every day won't show up as damage to your heart and arteries for some time, yet the damage it does is cumulative and can be permanent.

I am not saying that this very short period of running too cool is hurting you. I do not know that for sure. I am saying that many very knowledgeable people disagree that this is a safe thing to do, and feel that it will certainly cut life off your engine. In the absence of proof, there is at least evidence to suggest that this is true. And in case you are not aware of any such opinions, I am only mentioning it so you can be aware.

Again, I will LOVE to hear you report continuous success, and will be eager when you can show over 100,000 miles in that PD with WVO.


Jeff

I've switched over over to soon many times and have had the engine stumble and stall out on me so now I play it safe and wait until the engine is hot.

My last car was a 1981 Peugeuot 505TD

My last car was a Peugeot 505 Turbo Diesel that I ran on UNFILTERED waste vegetable oil (straight from the grease dumpster, I kid you not) for most of it's last 3000 miles. It ran slower but it still started and ran. I did this purely, and I mean PURELY because I knew it was on its last legs and I was graduating from college soon and would be able to replace it with a 'real car'.

But hey, it ran on U-N-F-I-L-T-E-R-E-D, unwashed, wet, nasty, frothy waste vegetable oil poured straight in with the diesel already in the tank. Does that mean it would have continued to run fine? So when I see postings about making it 3000 miles on WVO (a few posts back) I just laugh to myself. 3000 miles is NOTHING. It proves precisely squat, jack, and poop. You can't even begin to make wild-ass-guestimates about the long term behavior of your car.

Okay, sorry for the rant. Just had to share my college days diesel story.

Well, away from this thread for a few days, and I see that things are a bit more balanced now. You'll notice that I never said, "Go ahead and WVO your PD TDI and you'll have no problems at all."

My issue about negativity was that the first replies just said "HELL NO!", "Stay away", and "What they said." I mean, "do it at your own risk", OK, but "HELL NO!" ?? That's hardly a balanced discussion of the merits and dangers of SVO. I'm glad to see that the tone has turned more towards, "there can be serious issues, but with a correctly installed system and proper care and filtering of fuel, it can work." As I myself said, this is a fringe technology and you are on your own, but I hardly think that "proves the point" of the absolute nay-sayers.

YES there are many ways to do this wrong
YES you can ruin your IP, or even whole engine
YES there are horror stories of people who've done just that
YES you need to be careful, do your homework, weigh the pros & cons, decide if it's right for you

&

YES it can work if you do it right, because some people are doing just that.

Audi5000TDI said:

Here is what you are looking for: a blog on a PD fraught with failure.

http://getoffoil.blogspot.com/

Being a pioneer means that you are on your own when it comes to fending for yourself. Lots of pioneers didn't make it.

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OMG ... from the URL Audi provided:

In short, DO NOT USE ELF EXCELLION DID when operating with SVO/WVO or b99 -- Stick with Castrol Syntec. I will post my Blackstone oil analysis reports that shows why in another 3,000 miles.

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Don't use Elf ? Castrol Syntec? Surely he can't be serious (and don't call me shirley)



Miser

nicklockard said:

My last car was a Peugeot 505 Turbo Diesel that I ran on UNFILTERED waste vegetable oil (straight from the grease dumpster, I kid you not) for most of it's last 3000 miles. It ran slower but it still started and ran. I did this purely, and I mean PURELY because I knew it was on its last legs and I was graduating from college soon and would be able to replace it with a 'real car'.

But hey, it ran on U-N-F-I-L-T-E-R-E-D, unwashed, wet, nasty, frothy waste vegetable oil poured straight in with the diesel already in the tank. Does that mean it would have continued to run fine? So when I see postings about making it 3000 miles on WVO (a few posts back) I just laugh to myself. 3000 miles is NOTHING. It proves precisely squat, jack, and poop. You can't even begin to make wild-ass-guestimates about the long term behavior of your car.

Okay, sorry for the rant. Just had to share my college days diesel story.

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Saw an old couple driving a showroom condition wagon one day...

Looked at the back Peugeot 505 4WD....

I contimplated getting them to pull over so I could offer to buy it.

More words of caution, this from the Grease Works! website ( http://www.greaseworks.org/svo ):

" We therefore feel it is absolutely necessary for our customers to understand that unlike biodiesel which has over 50-million on-road miles of actual testing, tens of thousands of pages of peer-reviewed scientific literature backing up its efficacy as a highway fuel in diesel engines, as well as a relatively stable ASTM standard, SVO (especially WVO) is an experimental fuel and is not covered under any manufacturer’s warranty, is not considered by the EPA/IRS a "legitimate" on-road fuel, and should be used with caution. Yes, there are many tens of thousands--perhaps hundreds of thousands--of road miles on SVO/WVO in our collective experience, but the lack of standardized fuel sources (try to get an ASTM standard for a fuel that is inherently changing with each shift at the restaurant) and the lack of standardized filtration techniques by users leaves much to be desired as far as universal acceptance/quality control. To date, other than copious anecdotal evidence that does not hold up to scientific scrutiny, there is no clear evidence that WVO is not detrimental in the long-term to modern diesel engines. Free fuel is awfully alluring, but please be aware of this fact before you proceed with an SVO/WVO conversion!!"

So, once again, it's certainly not impossible, but make sure you know what you're doing.

Funkaholik said:

Well, away from this thread for a few days, and I see that things are a bit more balanced now. You'll notice that I never said, "Go ahead and WVO your PD TDI and you'll have no problems at all."

My issue about negativity was that the first replies just said "HELL NO!", "Stay away", and "What they said." I mean, "do it at your own risk", OK, but "HELL NO!" ?? That's hardly a balanced discussion of the merits and dangers of SVO. I'm glad to see that the tone has turned more towards, "there can be serious issues, but with a correctly installed system and proper care and filtering of fuel, it can work." As I myself said, this is a fringe technology and you are on your own, but I hardly think that "proves the point" of the absolute nay-sayers.

YES there are many ways to do this wrong
YES you can ruin your IP, or even whole engine
YES there are horror stories of people who've done just that
YES you need to be careful, do your homework, weigh the pros & cons, decide if it's right for you

&

YES it can work if you do it right, because some people are doing just that.

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This board is all about opinions. So maybe you don't like the nay-sayers opinions. But this uptightness about the naysayers and the 'Hell No!'-ers definitely insinuates that some of you are really looking for justification, even when experts who have a lot of TDI experience have weighed in with a 'nay'.

That's great that a few of you seem to be running fine on straight WVO. At least for now. This is still something that 99.44% of TDI'ers would be advised to avoid. So for the vast majority, the prudent advice is still 'Hell No!'

Thermo1223 said:

Saw an old couple driving a showroom condition wagon one day...

Looked at the back Peugeot 505 4WD....

I contimplated getting them to pull over so I could offer to buy it.

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Thermo, I first heard about Peugeuot turbo diesel wagons from an old roomate (west African) who swore by French built cars for their balance of ease of use, ease of maintenance, price, longevity, and utility. He owned both a 505 TD wagon (show room condition) and a Renault. When my '84 Honda Civic kicked the bucket, I got the Renault, which treated me right and ran strong except for a weeping power steering pump. Ever since then I've always liked the styling of the Peugeuot 405 and 505 series cars. The newer Peugeuot's sold in Europe are sophisticated (read: advanced turbo diesel technology) beyond belief.

Oh, also, you'd think that parts were hard to come by...well the Dodge dealer still stocked a lot of Renault parts, but my roomate had to send off for parts from Africa for his Peugeot.

I sold the Renault for a small profit because I wanted a diesel to gain ownership experience, so I bought the 505 TD. Besides being severly under-geared (all diesels of that era were ridiculously under geared for some reason), it was fine (for a college beater car )


Next time you see one that nice, don't hesitate They make great WVO/SVO test platforms.

4x4 505s? Yes. Converted by Dengel (sp?) IIRC...

i see a lot of reference to the new engine as of 2004, what about the TDI that was used in Beetles before that? not to hijack your thread, i just came across this in a search.

i see a lot of reference to the new engine as of 2004, what about the TDI that was used in Beetles before that? not to hijack your thread, i just came across this in a search.

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Check out JeffNLisa's replies on page 4 on this thread...that should give you one person's perspective.

I though my question was dead, good to see so many opinions. Great input all around.
I will most likly run WVO in both my furnace (very old one) and the TDI. I jusy spent $4000.00 for this heating season so I can certainly offset my costs, mess up my TDI running WVO and still be ahead of the game.
I will post some info and pictures when I have converted.
Thanks much Hkeycoach

Hkeycoach, I wish you good luck. The "right" way to run WVO from what I understand is the "paranoid-OCD-overkill" way.

This thread started out rather scary in the first page, but quickly turned to rational discussion. I really really want to believe in WVO/SVO conversions and that it'll work in my TDI, but I'd like to think that I'm a realist and understand that I have to be anal retentive and OCD in running it for it to work with a minimum of problems (note I didn't say problem free).

I am tickled to see people on this forum discussing WVO and TDIs in much better detail than I have seen either on the frybird or greasecar forums. JeffnLisa, etc. JeffnLisa, what do you consider to be a proper kit? I see there are some disparaging remarks about greasecar here. I bought my greasecar kit last August and haven't installed it. I really can't change the tank or solenoids, but I'm willing to modify the kit I have in any method within reason to attain the best results.

I'll try to quickly describe what I have and what you think I might be able to do to improve it.

2002 Jetta TDI, TLH engine (I think), at least, its the last generation engine with the battery and air filter on the driver's side.
The kit consists of a 15 gallon aluminum tank with a coolant coil in it and fuel gauge. The fuel line from the tank is a 1/4" ID nylon hose that is supposed to go inside the 5/8" ID red rubber hose for engine coolant.
After this, the fuel line is a 3/8" ID black rubber hose. There are 2 solenoids to control fuel selection and purging. I was planning on having it set so that the purge returned the fuel to the VO fuel line before the filter.
I also have a 16 plate heat exchanger purchased from Omar that I want to install on the fuel line as close to the engine as possible. The exchanger has 1/2" female threaded fittings, so I'll have to hunt down appropriate couplings for the hoses. I also plan on getting some foam pipe insulating and sheathing the fuel lines under the car in it.

As for the treatment for my WVO. I haven't collected to treated any WVO yet. I know I should have, I could have collected 200 gallons by now. I've several 50 gallon white HDPE (nylon) drums. I was planning on having 2 of them serve as untreated incoming fuel drums. One drum takes fuel until it fills up. The second drum is filled up and just sits in the sun to let time and gravity do the initial settling and dewatering. Pull the oil out from a few inches off of the bottom of the drum when filtering. Filter through a cotton cloth (cheap muslin or knit) first, and then various stages of filter bags from 100, 50, 10, 5, and down to 2 or 1 um. Likely cold filtering, but with forced pressure from a hand or electric pump. The output fuel would go into any number of waiting drums for storage (with biocide of course) until use. Aside from time, I don't know how else to dewater. I've read about water damage (either gross or through microcavitation) to the IPs and understand that I need to properly dewater the oil. Granted, I should be doing that to my D2 too!

BTW, if anyone who is running VO is near NC, there's a TDI meet on the 20th that I'm planning on being at, and hopefully, installing the kit.

So, to those of you who have gone where I wish to go, what say ye?

frugality said:

This board is all about opinions. So maybe you don't like the nay-sayers opinions. But this uptightness about the naysayers and the 'Hell No!'-ers definitely insinuates that some of you are really looking for justification, even when experts who have a lot of TDI experience have weighed in with a 'nay'.

That's great that a few of you seem to be running fine on straight WVO. At least for now. This is still something that 99.44% of TDI'ers would be advised to avoid. So for the vast majority, the prudent advice is still 'Hell No!'

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Agree 100%.


How about a simple cost/benefit analysis?


1. go WVO all the way.

Cost of properly installed, respected WVO kit: $2000
Garage space to filter, warm, etc...WVO........1/2
New IP pump every 30,000(?) miles...............$1200
Hassle factor.............................................HUGE.



2. Biodiesel all the way

Cost of proper...oh.....there's no need...........$0
Garage space for same................................1/2
New IP pu---oh, there's no need...................$0
Hassle factor.............................................Hell of a lot less!


Things you have to do to be a WVO'er:

1. Collect oil, get greasy--same as bioD
2. Transfer, settle oil, dewater, heat with electricity, filter...replace filters, fix filter clogs, get really greasy and stinky (with biod you only need to dewater and titrate, a ten minute super-easy task.)
3. Wait. And. Wait. And. Wait...
4. If you didn't sport for the $2000 kit, you have to spend considerable time, effort, and major hassle to re-engineer something that was done wrong.
5. Remember to switch back to diesel.

What's your time and headaches worth is what it all boils down to for me...good luck whichever you choose.

Oh, don't forget with biodiesel,
cost of methanol, naoh, and sulfuric acid. @$2/gal, 45mpg. $1333 for 30,000 miles.
Hassle of dealing with methanol, naoh, and sulfuric acid, washing, dewatering...
Setup to properly produce and filter biodiesel... $600 for an apple seed and filtration system.
Oh, and still, if you do screw up a batch: $1,200 for a new IP.

It goes both ways. (ooo, we can change the size of smilies!)

Fortuna Wolf beat me to it. I've seriously investigated doing both WVO and BioD production. I initially bought my TDI with the intentions of running WVO... however, after consideration of posts on this forum (and others), I started thinking BioD was the way to go... so I started investigating it quite a bit, even bought some equipment and supplies to make test batches (and have made some, which I use for cleaning stuff now, since I didn't want to put it in my car).

Anyway, my point is, running homebrew BioD is AT BEST just as difficult, messy, time consuming, and "dangerous" to your IP as running WVO. The hassle factor of BioD is actually quite a bit more than the hassle factor of straight WVO. It's safer in the aspect there's not as much clogging issues in cold weather, and there's no modifications to the car required. However, that is EASILY offset by the fact you have to deal with the methanol and NAOH, and then getting rid of the potentially harmful waste products. This doesn't even factor in the potential health problems of carelessly dealing with methanol (or NAOH!).

So saying BioD is less of a hassle than WVO is patently absurd. As I said, if anything, it's equal, but for 98% of the population, it's more of a hassle, but for the sake of arguement, I'll concede it's equal (though I don't really believe that).

Now, that's not to say there aren't attractive things about BioD that would make it a viable candidate for some people... but for others, running WVO is easier, since it eliminates a lot of steps that are required to make proper BioD.

Fortuna Wolf said:

Oh, don't forget with biodiesel,
cost of methanol, naoh, and sulfuric acid. @$2/gal, 45mpg. $1333 for 30,000 miles.
Hassle of dealing with methanol, naoh, and sulfuric acid, washing, dewatering...
Setup to properly produce and filter biodiesel... $600 for an apple seed and filtration system.
Oh, and still, if you do screw up a batch: $1,200 for a new IP.

It goes both ways. (ooo, we can change the size of smilies!)

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Bah! Where'd you get $2/gallon? People make bioD for 75c/gallon or less, INCLUDING all the amortization of equipment costs, supplies, and electricity.

Hey, don't screw up a batch. If you can make soap, you can make biodiesel. Saponification (soap from fats using lye) and transesterification (bioD from fats using "methoxide") are the exact same reaction, just with different nucleophiles.

How hard is it to make soap?

PS: I have yet to see a WVO'er admit how much they spend on electricity for all that heated filtering!

Nitrowolf said:

(snip) since it{WVO'ing} eliminates a lot of steps that are required to make proper BioD.

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Yeah, it eliminates all the easy steps, and includes all the hard, greasy, messy steps

Methinks a lot of you are just skeer'd-o chemistry(yuch! ) so you'd rather change injection pumps like underwear.

I was quoting a price that some of the people who make bioD in the local coop told me. Still, at 75c (and let's for the sake of argument assume that you run WVO filtered to say 1 micron and completely dewatered, so your IP lasts 100k mi), its still comparable.

Personally, I'm not planning on heating my WVO to filter it. If there are fats that precipitate out when its at room temperature, I don't want them in my car. I'll just deal with scooping out more gunk from the filter.

And yes, I've made soap before. Water in the IP scares me. You make soap when you make biodiesel. Soap makes oil and water like each other. See a problem here?

Uhhh, that's why you wash and dry it. See my thread at http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=130271 for ideas on how to do this. That thread starts out somewhat technical but gets easier as you read along. The actual construction of the tank and wheeled pallet was easy and ridiculously inexpensive.

Greasecar, BioD vs WVO

"changing injection pumps like underwear"? Come on. I hate to see this become a bioD vs WVO match. There are pros and cons for each, as well as expenses and dangers for each. Either way, you're using an alternative to fossil fuels, and that's a good thing.

Yes, oil collection can be messy, and time consuming. DIY BioD can be messy, too. Glycerin disposal, flammable methanol, etc. I have it easy here in Berkeley, with several friends who also run WVO, so we can share in the collecting / filtering / storage duties. Plus, if all else fails, there's a local SVO pump for 50 cents a gallon.

I ran B100 for 2 years while researching the best WVO system for my TDI. Now that I have the system installed, I love the feeling of driving around on somebody else's trash. Time will tell if it creates problems for my engine. As I said before, it's a fringe technology, and I have accepted the fact that, in spite of my dilligence, bad things could happen. Exciting, eh?

I installed a Greasecar kit in a Benz, and I was unimpressed with the heated filter. It's just a spin-on metal filter with some copper tubing wrapped around it for heat. Personally, I'd change the filter out to a more serious one, add a vacuum gauge, and some heated injector lines (only about $30 from fattywagons) if going with the Greasecar kit. My $.02.

I would also advise heating, or at least warming WVO before filtering - it really doesn't like to be pushed through a filter when cold. A friend just uses a drop-in aquarium heater rod to bring it up to about 90 degrees, and that seems to work much better than cold.

Attempting to run a modern auto engine on WVO is pointless. Just easier to us the resource in a much simpler combustion unit in your home. Don't know about you all but my gas and electric bill for my home is higher than my auto fuel bill.

I think if I had someone local that could hand hold me through a few batches of BioD brewing, and keep an eye on me while I setup my processor, I'd be more inclined to go with BioD... but since I would be flying on instruments only, BioD is not a trivial undertaking.

I've a question about SVO and WVO. WVO is nasty stuff until you filter it, and even then its still partially transesterfied, polymerized, and broken down. SVO I hear can be bought for 50 cents a gallon in bulk, especially if you get rapeseed or another type of oil that's not food grade (too bitter, or rancid, etc).
When you buy SVO, has that been filtered from the factory, or do you need to also run that through a filter? What about dewatering? I'd be much more inclined to run SVO than WVO in my car. 50 cents is still 2.50 cheaper than D2 and 3.00 cheaper than BD around here, so I'd still be saving money for the eventual IP and fuel system repair (which would be less likely due to not using WVO).

I've been running small amounts of WVO through my two unmodified A4s for years without the slightest problem. My Cat 2 fuel filters have been installed for a couple of years without problems or changing. Of course, I'm talking about less than 5% per tankful. Just enought to use up my turkey frying oil over the course of the year. Plus, I live in a warm climate. I wouldn't go over 5% for any reason.

Honestly is SVO was available at a cheap price and was guarenteed clean, pure, and buying in bulk was easy enough for me I give it some thought.