Losing timing adjustment?

ShamrockTDI · Oct 11, 2015

**UPDATE** 11/29
Post #28

About two months ago I had the timing adjusted- it had been quite retarted. A couple days ago the symptoms started to return- smoky hard starts and occasional missing under load. The belt etc were new 20k miles ago, changed by the dealership.
I'm going to check timing with a vcds today. If I find it retarted again, what would cause it to lose it's adjustment? Are there any tips for ensuring that it keeps it's setting? I will torque the bolts, should loctite be used also?

JETaah · Oct 11, 2015

No lock-tite should be needed.
How many miles on the engine/injection pump?
Is the camshaft still in time with the crankshaft?

ShamrockTDI · Oct 11, 2015

220k on the engine and I assume the original ip. I have no other reason to believe the crank and cam are out of time.

JETaah · Oct 11, 2015

That is feasibly enough miles for the IP to have worn.

Has the crankshaft seal on the pulley side ever been changed? I.E. the crank sprocket been removed?

nokivasara · Oct 11, 2015

Maybe they stripped the threads on the IP pulley bolts? Or left them too loose. Or used the same bolts if they are supposed to be changed.

I would strongly recommend you to check the cam/crank static timing to be sure that is still OK, don't drive it before that is done.

ShamrockTDI · Oct 11, 2015

JETaah said:
That is feasibly enough miles for the IP to have worn.

Has the crankshaft seal on the pulley side ever been changed? I.E. the crank sprocket been removed?

Not that I know of. Why?

ShamrockTDI · Oct 11, 2015

nokivasara said:
Maybe they stripped the threads on the IP pulley bolts? Or left them too loose. Or used the same bolts if they are supposed to be changed.
I would strongly recommend you to check the cam/crank static timing to be sure that is still OK, don't drive it before that is done.

I'll check the bolt torque before I adjust it, that's my leading guess.
How do you check the static timing?

KLXD · Oct 12, 2015

With a cam locking bar and a pump locking pin. Look at the timing belt change article.

JETaah · Oct 12, 2015

ShamrockTDI said:
Not that I know of. Why?

If the repair was done without crank bolt replacement and carefully observing that it takes an enormous amount of torque (88 lb/ft + 1/4 turn) to do the job properly then that crank bolt can come loose and the sprocket and possibly the end of the crank will get chewed up.

That will cause your injection and cam timing to slowly slip backward like yours does.

This happens a lot on the previous generation of TDIs (AHU, 1Z) but can happen on any car where the job was not done properly.

Your problem could be much simpler than this but it has to be mentioned as a possibility.

If your slippage winds up being at the pump sprocket after all, it can be due to the three bolts having been over-tightened at some point creating recesses in the sprocket face where the bolt heads are. It then makes it hard to make small adjustment that vary from that position. As the adjustment bolt heads ride up on an undamaged surface they will not have enough surface area to clamp sufficiently due to voids left by the over- torqued bolt heads.

Anyway....check the camshaft-crank timing and see if that has shifted as well.

Victor Huge · Oct 12, 2015

Edited: I was wrong about the alh crank bolt torque. It's 88lb/ft

cabldevil · Oct 12, 2015

I just change my crank Cog for the same exact reason. AHU

JETaah · Oct 12, 2015

Victor Huge said:
I'm sure it's just a typo but the crank bolt on the ALH is 100lb/ft +1/4 turn

What is your source? My Bentley says 88+.

Victor Huge · Oct 12, 2015

My sincere apologies, I misread it somewhere and thought it was a typo on your end. Sorry about that!

ShamrockTDI · Oct 12, 2015

JETaah said:
If the repair was done without crank bolt replacement and carefully observing that it takes an enormous amount of torque (88 lb/ft + 1/4 turn) to do the job properly then that crank bolt can come loose and the sprocket and possibly the end of the crank will get chewed up.
That will cause your injection and cam timing to slowly slip backward like yours does.

This happens a lot on the previous generation of TDIs (AHU, 1Z) but can happen on any car where the job was not done properly.

Your problem could be much simpler than this but it has to be mentioned as a possibility.

If your slippage winds up being at the pump sprocket after all, it can be due to the three bolts having been over-tightened at some point creating recesses in the sprocket face where the bolt heads are. It then makes it hard to make small adjustment that vary from that position. As the adjustment bolt heads ride up on an undamaged surface they will not have enough surface area to clamp sufficiently due to voids left by the over- torqued bolt heads.

Anyway....check the camshaft-crank timing and see if that has shifted as well.

So I just checked, and I bought a gates kit without the crank bolt, and had vw do it. I'd strongly guess that it's never been touched. So would that move this possibility down the list?

Noticed today that the ip pulley bolts are the bluish kind (non reusable) so I picked up a set of the reusables. The blue ones are currently torqued past spec (18 ft lbs?).

JETaah · Oct 12, 2015

Blue are reusable. Green are not if they are bolts with a narrowed section between the threads and the head.

ShamrockTDI · Nov 27, 2015

nokivasara said:
Maybe they stripped the threads on the IP pulley bolts? Or left them too loose. Or used the same bolts if they are supposed to be changed.
I would strongly recommend you to check the cam/crank static timing to be sure that is still OK, don't drive it before that is done.

Ok, this is an old-ish thread, but I'm still having the issue...
Since I posted last, I replaced the three IP pulley bolts with new and adjusted timing to just below the green line. Today I checked it and it's retarded just below spec. Unfortunately, the pulley cannot be adjusted any further- the bolts are at the limit of the slots on the pulley.
1. I'd like to check the static timing, but I don't have the bar or pin. Is there any other way to do this?
2. Can I check the Crank bolt torque relatively easily, ie through the passenger wheelwell?
3. Is there a method for checking the IP for slippage?

evsi · Nov 27, 2015

Not sure if this is of any help, but I had the same issue just last week and I traced it to a faulty timing belt tensioner which was allowing the pump timing to fluctuate too much - Worth a check.

Also, it sounds like your pump isn't set correctly. I'm not 100% sure on what engine you have, but either get the correct timing bar/pin kit to check, or at a push, find a flat piece of bar which will fit snugly in the cam slot and (I think) a 12mm drill bit for the IP hole. Make sure that the flywheel pointer is @ TDC on the gearbox mark with the cam lock/IP pin in place. You should also remove the IP pin before you tension the timing belt to keep the crank @ TDC.

Always always always rotate the engine clockwise a full revolution and re-check timing position/belt tension before starting and of course, use the timing graph to set the final timing plot

Cheers

ShamrockTDI · Nov 27, 2015

evsi said:
Not sure if this is of any help, but I had the same issue just last week and I traced it to a faulty timing belt tensioner which was allowing the pump timing to fluctuate too much - Worth a check.

Also, it sounds like your pump isn't set correctly. I'm not 100% sure on what engine you have, but either get the correct timing bar/pin kit to check, or at a push, find a flat piece of bar which will fit snugly in the cam slot and (I think) a 12mm drill bit for the IP hole. Make sure that the flywheel pointer is @ TDC on the gearbox mark with the cam lock/IP pin in place. You should also remove the IP pin before you tension the timing belt to keep the crank @ TDC.

Always always always rotate the engine clockwise a full revolution and re-check timing position/belt tension before starting and of course, use the timing graph to set the final timing plot

Cheers

Interesting, I'll check the tensioner- how did you determine that it was faulty? Mine was changed ~25k miles ago along with the belt, wp, and idler pulleys (Gates TCKWP321m kit)
Do you have any idea what the bar thickness is for the cam lock? I have an ALH engine.

evsi · Nov 27, 2015

Basically it was the only thing I hadn't focussed on, but it was at the point where I could physically see the belt jumping around. This was also a new tensioner with less than 1000 miles on it.

Not sure on the bar thickness. Probably around 3mm but I can check for you. I only paid £10 for the kit so they're not exexpensive. Have you checked water temp sensor?

ShamrockTDI · Nov 27, 2015

I read through the TB procedure, and remembered something... A few months ago I was troubleshooting something else and turned the engine (by hand) ccw a full rotation before I realized that cw is correct. Oops...

Could that have screwed up something timing related (tensioner maybe)? If so, how do I fix it?

I'm planning to fab a cam bar this weekend to check the static timing.

csstevej · Nov 27, 2015

Is the tensioner tab in the hole on the cover?

ShamrockTDI · Nov 27, 2015

evsi said:
Basically it was the only thing I hadn't focussed on, but it was at the point where I could physically see the belt jumping around. This was also a new tensioner with less than 1000 miles on it.
Not sure on the bar thickness. Probably around 3mm but I can check for you. I only paid £10 for the kit so they're not exexpensive. Have you checked water temp sensor?

That would be great! I'm planning to make a tool this weekend.
You paid 10 pounds for what kit, a new tensioner??
Temp sensor seems fine, but I havent looked into it- I did notice today that the gauge was reading 190f (88c) but VCDS was reading <80c.

ShamrockTDI · Nov 27, 2015

csstevej said:
Is the tensioner tab in the hole on the cover?

I just went out and checked- the tab is in the hole, and the two spanner wrench holes are at roughly 9 and 12 o'clock. The motor mount is barely in the way, but it looks like the tooth and groove are aligned.

evsi · Nov 28, 2015

ShamrockTDI said:
That would be great! I'm planning to make a tool this weekend.
You paid 10 pounds for what kit, a new tensioner??
Temp sensor seems fine, but I havent looked into it- I did notice today that the gauge was reading 190f (88c) but VCDS was reading <80c.

No, sorry, £10 was for the timing bar/pin kit, the tensioner was £30. I'm at work all weekend so I'm unable to get the exact thickness of the cam lock tool, but I think it's around 4mm. Just have a look at the slot on the rear of the camshaft and go from there, but obviously make sure it's a good fit.

Also worth checking what temp the sensor is giving the ecu when cold if you're having cold start issues

JB05 · Nov 28, 2015

Have a closer look at the TB tensioner if the engine was rotated CCW. I have read here that doing so could affect the tensioner, but someone else will have to elaborate.

ShamrockTDI · Nov 28, 2015

JB05 said:
Have a closer look at the TB tensioner if the engine was rotated CCW. I have read here that doing so could affect the tensioner, but someone else will have to elaborate.

I'll do some reading. I currently looks like the pics I see in the timing belt pdf. How would the tensioner be affected? Can it be reset? Hopefully someone can elaborate?

KLXD · Nov 28, 2015

Rotating the tensioner backwards when tensioning the belt may damage it because you are unwinding the spring. Rotating the engine backwards will have no effect on it.

I have read the rotating the engine CCW will damage the pump but I don't see why. It might push the the timing mechanism to the full advanced position. It would return when rotated CW.

ShamrockTDI · Nov 29, 2015

Update

I set the static timing using a cam block, ip pin, and the flywheel mark. The flywheel was not at tdc with the cam and ip set, but i eventually found the tdc mark. Unfortunatly idk how far the flywheel was off; i had to search for the mark by moving it with a screwdriver . I found that the tensioner was 2-3 widths of the notch off. I adjusted it cw to perfect. From there i followed the tb .pdf, and all timing marks were dead nuts after rotating by hand and after a failed start attempt.

Yes, failed. I tried moving the ip pulley advanced a little at a time, and it didnt start until it was back in its previous position, at the limit of the bolt slots... VCDS is showing timing at between the red and blue lines currently. It was initially below the red, and bumping the fuel up to ~5.6 mg/str brought it to where it sits. edit: this was a mistake. I think it wasnt warmed up during this reading. This morning I checked it fully warm, put the fuel back to default and the timing held above the red

What is going on here? Is the ip going out? Can the ip pulley have been improperly placed at the tb change?

tadawson · Nov 29, 2015

Stripped key on the crank?

- Tim

BuzzKen · Nov 29, 2015

tadawson said:
Stripped key on the crank?

- Tim

My money is on this.

Losing timing adjustment?

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