Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: ‘Now it is absolutely clean’

The 100k (or so) was due to being in the north, mainly, and my father having inexplicably insulated the garage. That caused things to rot out so fast that you could almost see through them diagonally by about 70k . . . I now keep things much longer, and my Volvo 855 hit over 250k on the original auto before my daughter killed it . . . The Maxima was well over 100k as well . . .

Never had VW's prior to these, so, as I noted, my observation may not be consistent with specific brands, but the guy I replied to wasn't being brand centric either . . .

. . . and, iirc, the Maxima in that vintage was known for grenading manuals . . .

Considering that tadawson pointed out a clutch failure on the Maxima, I'd venture a guess that DMF failure on a manual TDI would also be counted as a "transmission failure".

Also, while not applicable to a common rail in the US, the 5-speed manuals are known for the differentials having weaknesses - ones that, yes, can be avoided for hundreds of thousands of miles by avoiding excessive wheelspin, but it is a weak point of the 02A/02J/02S family - as well as the 5th gear being prone to failure if there's any kind of gear oil leak.

But yeah, VW has made some really poor decisions with selecting automatic transmission designs. (Somewhere I've seen claims that the 096/097/098/01M/01N/01P family was actually designed by Renault, and if true, there's plenty of jokes to be had...)

There are certainly many examples of [relatively] weak manual gearboxes out there. The Volkswagen Fox, which were ALL manuals, had notoriously weak transmissions of both 4 and 5 speed variety, but especially the 4 speed. The 091 4 speed in the Vanagons is not the best if worked hard, and the 3-4 slider fork breaking is a VERY common occurrence which is why they make an upgraded part (as well as some other upgrades for the 091). The 091 came out in 1976 and was used in the lighter and mostly less powerful T2 Bus. But by '86, the T3 was equipped with 25 more HP (doesn't sound like a lot, but this reflects a ~20% increase, a pretty substantial amount) and about 600 pounds more curb weight... plus you had an AWD option... adding even more weight.

Many Hondas, especially the higher output Civic Si and Acura Integra, had weak manual gearboxes.

Plenty of Mitsubishi products had some bad ones.

The Mazda unit like my F150 uses (used in many other Fords as well) had some problems that could mostly be solved by switching to proper gear oil (like Mazda uses in their trucks' manuals) instead of the "fuel saving" ATF that Ford specified. Still, these also had a bad problem with the pilot bearing seizing on the input shaft, ruining it and making the transmission need to come completely apart to replace it.

The diesel powered Toyota pickups from the early '80s were all manuals, and they were all awful. '83 + saw an increase in the front input shaft bearing size that helped, you could actually get past 100k miles usually then.

Some of the Renault sourced manuals in Jeeps were pretty bad... again, something that was intended to go behind a modest HP 2.1L Renault turbodiesel, not a revamped gasser inline 6 with nearly twice the displacement.

Still, in many cases, manual gearbox life can and usually is able to be largely extended by how the vehicle is operated. As well as making sure they have a full and clean supply of lubricant. Since manuals will "work" just fine when low on fluid. Automatics won't. An automatic REQUIRES fluid to be present to function. They get low, they act up (slip, flare, etc.) or just quit pulling altogether. Manuals don't. So a small, slow seep of fluid over 100k miles that is gone unchecked means they WILL fail.

The other thing though is the complexity on the control side of an automatic transmission, especially the newer ones. Lots of failures, or at least high cost repairs if not a total failure, are associated with these complex controls. The valve body and all its associated solenoids, sensors, wires, bus bars, lead plates, actuators, etc. is a VERY complicated thing. This means a large liability for *something* to fail. Manuals have none of that. Just some simple linkages to allow your left foot and right arm coordinated by the best "microprocessor" on the planet (the human brain). If that doesn't work, you've got bigger problems than not being able to drive anywhere.

As far as I am concerned, ANY transmission in ANY car that cannot get well beyond 100k miles with no abuse and proper care is a poor unit. Same for an engine, for that matter. And we see plenty of both that struggle to do that.





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bhtooefr said:

(Somewhere I've seen claims that the 096/097/098/01M/01N/01P family was actually designed by Renault, and if true, there's plenty of jokes to be had...)

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Wikipedia would have us believe the 096 and 01M were developed by STA, which is to Renault as Aisin is to Toyota. Imagine getting an Eagle Premier with the 4 cylinder... it used the AR4, which is in the same family as the 096 and shares many parts

-J

compu_85 said:

Imagine getting an Eagle Premier with the 4 cylinder... it used the AR4, which is in the same family as the 096 and shares many parts
-J

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I wonder how many people here even know what that car is. It was lovely. And that's from someone who's always had a fondness for Renaults.

Good point... for those that don't know, the Premier was based on the Renault 25, from when Renault owned AMC. Chrysler bought AMC for Jeep right as the Premier was about to launch, and the badges were quickly changed to Eagle.

So if you bought a 4 cyl Premier, you got an AMC car, with Renault electronics and transmission, AMC interior and engine, sold by Chrysler.

The V6 Premier shared its engine with Volvo and Delorean. AMC had put in a commitment to buy xxx number of these V6s, which Chrysler inherited. Consequently, few 4 cyl cars were made to try and fill these orders (which they didn't do anyway).

-J

Do not have any Renault products to compare to as they'd pretty pulled out by the time the 096+ came around, but it would not surprise me that VAG worked with someone else on a slushbox. It is different enough from the 010 derived boxes before it to think it was designed by a completely different group of folks, although chances are the 010 design team had mostly retired by then anyway.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I wonder how many people here even know what that car is. It was lovely. And that's from someone who's always had a fondness for Renaults.

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The Eagle had a pretty good line up to compete with Subaru for the AWD car segment. Too bad Chrysler replaced that whole marketing concept with the K-car.

The second gen Premier (and there was a Dodge version, the Monaco, after the Chrysler takeover) used a ZF autobox bolted to the PRV V6. I DID work on plenty of those. They were not a bad driving car, not terrible to service, but were not a very good car. Longitudinal mounted engine, which was supposedly what prompted the LH body's arrangement. I think they were even built in the same Canadian plant.

Mostly Renix or Bosch electronics.

When I bought my Rabbit Diesel back in '78 my second choice was a Le Car, believe it or not. In some ways I liked it better than the VW, despite having to learned to drive in a Bus and owning three Bugs before the Rabbit. My third choice was a Fiat 128. Guess I dodged more than one bullet.

My boss worked at a Jeep/Eagle/Renault dealer when he started in the auto service field. He has never ever had anything nice to say about anything they sold. And they were an AMC dealer before Renault bought them out, so they ended up "inheriting" the pre-AMC Renault line for service even though they didn't sell those models. So cars like the LeCar, the Fuego, the Gordini, etc. that were 100% "real" French Renaults were suddenly thrust upon them. Most all of their techs were old guys from the old AMC era that were around through the 1970s, as no "new" technicians wanted to go to an AMC dealer. They were on life support then.

So for a crew that was well used to working on Gremlins, Hornets, Pacers, Matadors, Ambassadors, CJ5s, CJ7s, and Wagoneers, these French cars were about as foreign as you could have possibly gotten. That didn't help. Then all the half-breed cars like the Cherokee, Alliance, Encore, Medallion, etc. started to pilfer in, which were probably even worse. And the few real AMC products left, which was by that point just the CJs, the J10-based Wagoneers, and a few Hornet-based Eagles, were not exactly pillars of engineering. What an awful lineup. And it perhaps got worse after '87 when Chrysler came along, and decided to thrust a bunch of badge engineered Mitsubishis on them under an Eagle name, although by then there were probably none of the French cars left on the road.

My parents bought a couple of Renault LeCars in the early eighties. I think they were just about the cheapest new car available at the time. I'm not sure when exactly the Yugo made it over here- thanks to Malcolm Bricklin if I remember correctly. The LeCars/R5 were fun little cars and got decent gas mileage. I don't think we ever got the turbo version. I remember a commercial filmed in San Fran where they launched the little thing like 3 feet in the air, landed it, and kept on going. There were a number of AMC logos on the Renaults. Man it would be fun to take one of those for a spirited drive today.

In the early 80s Avis rented Alliances with the 3 speed auto. They were amazingly slow. I used to pick one up at LAX and drive out to my in-laws on the Pasadena Freeway (reportedly the first freeway built in the US), which is pretty twisty. I used to mat the accelerator and see if I could get the 8 miles or so to Pasadena without lifting. Car still wouldn't get much over 65 MPH.

oilhammer said:

The second gen Premier (and there was a Dodge version, the Monaco, after the Chrysler takeover) used a ZF autobox bolted to the PRV V6.

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Yup, it was the 4 cyl that got the Renault automatic. I don't think they sold many.

Yeah I have never seen a single one. But saw quite a few of the V6s. Those actually ran pretty good for the day. I remember doing lots of intake manifold R&Rs due to the cooling hose running through the valley attached to the back of the water pump housing developing a leak. They had a worm gear type clamp under there that over time would weep coolant. Could have probably been eliminated with the use of a constant tension clamp instead. Oddly enough, they DID use constant tension clamps on the radiator hoses that were out in the open. Go figure.

tikal said:

ICE engines, and specially gasoline ICE engines, will be hard to get rid of at current fuel prices in the US.

United States has probably one of the least expensive costs of hydrocarbon fuels in the industrialized world.

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There are at least 8 other Country's that are cheaper than the US, but based on salary, the US then becomes 3rd.

turbovan+tdi said:

There are at least 8 other Country's that are cheaper than the US, but based on salary, the US then becomes 3rd.

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I was thinking, Western Europe, Australia/New Zealand, Japan, China, South Korea, Singapore type of countries. I would think among these the US has the least expensive energy fuels for transportation.

Horse buggies didn’t disappear over night; neither will ICE engines. But the writing is on the wall.

gearheadgrrrl said:

When I do the numbers on my next new car I quickly figure out that even at 25 MPG fuel ain't a budget buster. The real budget busters derive from original price of the car, stuff like depreciation, license fees, and insurance. But looking at it from a different angle, 40 MPG vs. 25 MPG means I can drive a lot more for the same transportation budget $$$.

Click to expand...

Maintenance costs are another area where EVs come out ahead. No oil changes, no timing belts. Generally no brake pads (typically use regen to slow the car, while they have friction brakes, they are rarely used).



What you are left with is simple stuff. Rotate tires, cabin filter, top off windshield fluid. Mine still has glycol (to regulate battery temperatures) - I suppose that gets checked/flushed once in a while.

tadawson said:

The *ONLY* transmission failures I have ever had have been in the manuals.

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For me automatics have been troublesome, and when they act up the repairs cost a fortune. The manuals were rock solid. While I put a lot of miles on the cars, I never needed to replace the clutch (I think my best was 180k miles on the factory clutch).

ericy said:

Maintenance costs are another area where EVs come out ahead. No oil changes, no timing belts. Generally no brake pads (typically use regen to slow the car, while they have friction brakes, they are rarely used). What you are left with is simple stuff. Rotate tires, cabin filter, top off windshield fluid. Mine still has glycol (to regulate battery temperatures) - I suppose that gets checked/flushed once in a while.

Click to expand...

If you read about Teslas that have accumulated some miles, you'll find they need more than washer fluid. Steering and suspension issues (ball joints, steering knuckles, dampers), electric motor replacements, and battery or partial battery replacements. Most items are under warranty at this point, but they are failing. Add to that the complex electronics that seem to be troublesome (displays, those pesky Model X doors), and their repair rate per mile may not be significantly different than a competing luxury car.

Keep in mind that EVs in general tend to accumulate fewer miles than ICE cars, for obvious reasons. And Most ICE cars require little drivetrain maintenance beyond filters and fluids for the the first 100K miles. Maybe bake pads, depending on how they're driven. And both are going to need tires.

Or, you could say that the reduced maintenance costs help make up for the higher purchase cost. And the purchase of a home charger, if you need one.

BeetleGo said:

Horse buggies didn’t disappear over night; neither will ICE engines. But the writing is on the wall.

Click to expand...

In my opinion thinking that EVs will simply replace ICE over-simplifies the challenges we face. If we're serious about fighting climate change, our fundamental assumptions about how we live and work, what our communities look like, how our cities are configured all have to fundamentally change. Suburbs and commuting may have to go away. We may need to replace roads with something else...rail lines, for example. I don't think driving an EV instead of an ICE car gets us to the goal line. They still take energy to build and operate, they have their own harmful effects in mining battery materials, disposal is a problem, they still emit particulates. Lots of problems.

I visited Amsterdam about 10 years ago and was struck by how different transport is in that city compared to most North American cities. Below the airport is a train station. Outside the downtown train station is a huge network of light rail cars that go all over the city. Bike paths are everywhere. There's lots of room for pedestrians. People I spoke to consider driving as a second choice, not the only option.

Maybe it won't be that hard.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

In my opinion thinking that EVs will simply replace ICE over-simplifies the challenges we face. If we're serious about fighting climate change, our fundamental assumptions about how we live and work, what our communities look like, how our cities are configured all have to fundamentally change. Suburbs and commuting may have to go away. We may need to replace roads with something else...rail lines, for example. I don't think driving an EV instead of an ICE car gets us to the goal line. They still take energy to build and operate, they have their own harmful effects in mining battery materials, disposal is a problem, they still emit particulates. Lots of problems.
I visited Amsterdam about 10 years ago and was struck by how different transport is in that city compared to most North American cities. Below the airport is a train station. Outside the downtown train station is a huge network of light rail cars that go all over the city. Bike paths are everywhere. There's lots of room for pedestrians. People I spoke to consider driving as a second choice, not the only option.
Maybe it won't be that hard.

Click to expand...

I agree with you. I’m just saying ICE engines are now the old solution to transportation needs. There are still horse drawn buggies today, and ICE engines won’t disappear over night either, but the EV’s are coming, and WILL replace them.

BeetleGo said:

Horse buggies didn’t disappear over night; neither will ICE engines. But the writing is on the wall.

Click to expand...

I got an UBER ride a few weeks back, in a tesla, it really did make any/every ICE car I've ever been in seem stone age by comparison, sitting in traffic, and the car uses the absolute minimum of power/energy to do so, no noise, great ride... I asked the dude to step on it a bit and the thing just flat out hauls too.

I am disappointed by Tesla being so heavily proprietary, not giving out any info on how to work on them to any independent shops, all work has to be done by tesla, but hopefully that will change.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

If we're serious about fighting climate change, our fundamental assumptions about how we live and work, what our communities look like, how our cities are configured all have to fundamentally change.

Click to expand...

Our diets will have to change too. Almost half of an americans carbon footprint is due to the meat they eat, plants have a much much smaller carbon footprint. But american men are very macho, their masculinity is almost indestructible, but ironically, american men are scared to death that a plate of vegetables will destroy their masculinity. May you live in interesting times.

tikal said:

I was thinking, Western Europe, Australia/New Zealand, Japan, China, South Korea, Singapore type of countries. I would think among these the US has the least expensive energy fuels for transportation.

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I have the list at work, but some of the winners were surprising.

ericy said:

Maintenance costs are another area where EVs come out ahead. No oil changes, no timing belts. Generally no brake pads (typically use regen to slow the car, while they have friction brakes, they are rarely used).



What you are left with is simple stuff. Rotate tires, cabin filter, top off windshield fluid. Mine still has glycol (to regulate battery temperatures) - I suppose that gets checked/flushed once in a while.

Click to expand...

I don't know, I've put 80K on my car in 3 years, all I've done is change the oil, change wiper blades and top up fluids.

Granted, I"ve modified it, but that was a choice, not a necessity.

There's an article in the NY Times stating that a bunch of new countries are increasing oil production: Brazil, Canada, Norway and Guyana. Expeted 2020 output is 1M barrels, 2021 is 2M. Wonder what will happen to EV sales if gasoline prices suddenly drop? Would people give up their pickups if gasoline is $150/gallon?

IndigoBlueWagon said:

There's an article in the NY Times stating that a bunch of new countries are increasing oil production: Brazil, Canada, Norway and Guyana. Expeted 2020 output is 1M barrels, 2021 is 2M. Wonder what will happen to EV sales if gasoline prices suddenly drop? Would people give up their pickups if gasoline is $150/gallon?

Click to expand...

No. We’ll see whether those countries actually do this, and even if they did, that still doesn’t change the trajectory. it might slow down the change, but we’re going electric. One way or the other! (You May quote me)

tikal said:

I was thinking, Western Europe, Australia/New Zealand, Japan, China, South Korea, Singapore type of countries. I would think among these the US has the least expensive energy fuels for transportation.

Click to expand...

It's not the price of the fuel where people see the differences at the pump. It's the added taxes. All fuels are priced and traded on a global basis these days. Sure some areas push one grade over another, but it's still on a global demand. If there is a hiccup in one area of the world, (Middle East), it effects the actual global fuel price. Some regions, like Brazil, were pushing their own local production and keeping their pump prices artificially low for years.

Brazil also went heavily into local sourced ethanol based gasoline decades ago, which you can do more successfully if you have higher MPG vehicles sold as the normal means of transportation. Which is why the last few decades of the air cooled Volkswagen engines that were still in production were totalflex engines, as well as all the newer gasoline engines, including the 1.4L I4 in the Brazil built T2 Bus that was being built up until just recently.

We have something similar here, but instead of sugar cane based in is corn based, but we also consume WAY more fuel.