Our newest diesel is here!

Drove it about 150 miles this weekend...fuel gauge finally moved down one bar from full (it has an LCD type in the center of the cluster). Lisa had it cookin' along at 80 on the Interstate.

oilhammer said:

Drove it about 150 miles this weekend...fuel gauge finally moved down one bar from full (it has an LCD type in the center of the cluster). Lisa had it cookin' along at 80 on the Interstate.

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Nice Van Oilhammer. My brother in law has had a couple of the MB cargo cans and is still driving one. He started buying them to replace the old VW T4 Transporter cargo vans which he had a fleet of. Unfortunately he has had a lot of problems with them...but he also works them hard, and has them overloaded most if not all of the time, and pulls a trailer often as well. He had a 2006 model with the dual rear wheels, but his current machine...I think a 2012 model is a single rear wheel.

On the flip side of his experience, we had an emergency hot-shot delivery at work recently, and the guy showed up from Ontario in a 2006 Sprinter van with 1.1 Million kms on it...that would be around 625k miles. He claimed to have had no repairs other than basic maintenance and glow plug replacements every two years. He said he has run that Mobil1 0w40 Euro Blend oil in it since new with 10k mile oil change intervals.

I know there's a lot of them on the road here. Yours looks great though...I only ever see the white cargo vans.

Yeah, the white cargo vans are pretty common here too. In fact, the VAST majority of the ones we service are like that. Have one in the shop right now for service.

The white ones (as well as a few other solid colors) get poorer paint too. Which is probably why so many seem to rust at any chips or dings on them.

MB has three tiers of paint, the basic choices standard non-metallic (of which white is one, and the most common), then the middle level of premium non-metallic, then the highest which is premium metallic. Mine is Brilliant Silver Metallic, one of the top choices. And I am told that the $995 price bump is due to not only the better paint but also better undertreatment. And I will say that while I do not see too many on the roads with one of the premium color choices, when you do they still seem to look pretty darn good. Even the older ones. Some of that is certainly due to better paint, then some is probably due to better care since these would generally be like mine that are owned by someone who will actually keep them washed and waxed. The white cargo van fleet workhorses rarely ever get such care. I am actually working on building a scaffold outrigger to be able to safely and securely clean and wax the roof on this, since a ladder alone won't get the job done like it can with the Eurovan and Vanagon. They are not only too tall, but they are far too wide to reach the middle of the roof. In fact we had one of our customers here with one last year that needed the antenna replaced. It is located smack dab in the center of the roof above the windshield. Only way I was able to get at it was to lay on a pallet and have my boss lift me with our forklift up and over from the side.

oilhammer said:

The white cargo van fleet workhorses rarely ever get such care.

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Yes, I suppose so. The MB vans my brother in law runs not only get worked hard, they would never ever be washed, and most definitely not waxed.

His current one...a 2012 seems to have decent white paint, but that 2006 rusted so fast and so badly he could barely keep up with it.

The silver is nice though. I bet they make for a nice passenger van.

Well, it actually is pretty utilitarian inside. Not very plush or fancy at all. Which I actually like. If this thing's interior was trimmed out like an E-class or something, it would probably be 70 grand or more, and I'd be afraid to get in it, especially with kids.

As it stands, from the B-pillars forward it is pretty much identical to the cargo vans. Same sturdy hard plastics, same firm supportive and basic cloth seat surfaces, and same body-painted exposed bits like the seat pedestals. Even the floor is the same rubber gray material, and the headliner is the same felt material, with exposed Torx screws on the grab handle anchor points. The rear area is pretty much the same treatment. Nothing fancy. I love that part about it. Even has big black steel eyelets throughout the rear for cargo hold down points. This thing is all business, no fluff.

Really makes more sense for family vehicles to be made this way. Far more useable and durable than the carpeted plush fragile interiors you see in a Sienna or something (which, by the way, cost just as much or more, are a third the size, and use more fuel).

Only real downside is that this cannot go in most any parking garages, and drive through facilities will be such a case-by-case challenge that I have already had that discussion with the wife. Essentially, drive throughs will be "forbidden" in the Sprinter. She agrees.

That would make a lot of sense for a family vehicle. I remember the first trip in our brand new Windstar. One of the kids spilled chocolate milk all over herself, the car seat, the seat, and the floor. And that was before we even got out of Charlotte. I was not a happy camper.

I remember the rubber floor covering on our split window busses when I was a kid. Loosen four bolts, pull out the middle seat, roll up the mat, lay it on the driveway and hose it off. We used to go to the beach a lot so it was a great way to get all the sand out of the car. You can vacuum VW carpets endlessly and still get sand out of them.

Two pedals?

All Sprinters sold here are slushboxes, unfortunately. However, MB generally does pretty good with them, and their manuals (the few that I have driven) seem rather clunky and "disconnected", so I am not sure I'd even want a manual even if it was available. But, the MB manuals used in some Wranglers and Rams seem to be just fine, and maybe that would be more akin to what the Sprinter would get, I don't know.

But the 7-speed trans it does have so far seems to be pretty well behaved. Not sure what all is different about it from the 5-speed version the V6s and I5s got. It does seem to sometimes have a slightly different shift between certain gears, like a slight hang as it shifts. But this may be simply due to the fact that this is just the 5sp with different internals switched on and off at different times and it is just doing what it needs to do to make the gears.

Because it reminds me a bit of how some of the Bordeaux Ford automatics are, where they took the little one (C3?) and added an O/D on the back, which makes it a 4sp, originally known as the A4LD, then later added electronic controls (A4LD-E) which later got updated and renamed (4R55E) and then they came out with a 5sp version (5R55E). The 5sp just turns the O/D on in 1st gear to make 2nd gear, then back off and the trans shifts to 2nd which is now 3rd, trans shifts again to 3rd (high gear) to make 4th, then the O/D comes back on to make 5th gear. All they did was play a little with the gear ratios and changed the software, but they are essentially the same transmission.

Because if you have a "conventional" planetary gearset transmission, you have 3 possible speeds, low, medium, and high, with high being straight through 1:1 ratio. So if you add an overdrive on the back, you can double the available speeds to 6. Like a "10-speed" bike really only has 7 gears, 2 in front, 5 in the back. So the total number of combinations makes 10, but if you are working both the front and rear derailers at the same time, it would make for some pretty wonky gearchanges.

I think this transmission has a total of 3 planetary gearsets.

The more you explain things, the happier I am that I am not a mechanic. Glad you related it back to a bike since the gearing is much easier to understand when you can see it in action.

kjclow said:

The more you explain things, the happier I am that I am not a mechanic. Glad you related it back to a bike since the gearing is much easier to understand when you can see it in action.

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Well any time I can use a much simple analogy it makes it easier to understand. Cars can be complicated.

In other news, my junk-assed Kumho tires are unround, as verified this morning on the balancer. I find it criminal that any manufacturer, especially a German one, especially Mercedes-Benz, would use such a lousy tire from the factory.

And what really stinks is I am sure when I call our tire rep he'll just say "replacement only" which means I'll just get more Korean garbage to replace the Korean garbage I already have. I may just cut my losses and throw all 5 on craigslist and put that towards a new set of Michelins.

Also found out I may have to buy a non-step rear bumper, as the wheelchair lift may not clear the step bumper this one has (another "option" that I did not want but got stuck with anyway). We'll see, going today at lunch to the upfitter and going to do some measurements.

Oh, and at 80 MPH it is turning 2600 RPMs, which is only about 100 RPMs more than my diesel B5 Passat turns. Pretty good. Eurovan is singing along at 4k RPM at that speed That 5 cyl howl starts to wear on you after a while.

Heater booster in the Sprinter works fantastic. It was 27 F this morning when I left my house, and the vents were starting to blow lukewarm air by the time I got to the end of my road (about a quarter mile), and before I got to the Interstate from the 2-lane (about 2.25 miles) it was pretty warm. Not sure how it was all the way in the rear, but up front it was quite comfortable. No temp gauge, so no idea what the engine temp was. I may get a Scangauge for this, as my curiosity is peaking about the goings on with the engine management.

Still flabbergasted about how easily this 2.1L 4cyl moves this thing down the road. Nicely done, MB, nicely done.

oilhammer said:

Oh, and at 80 MPH it is turning 2600 RPMs, which is only about 100 RPMs more than my diesel B5 Passat turns. Pretty good. Eurovan is singing along at 4k RPM at that speed That 5 cyl howl starts to wear on you after a while.

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Is your Eurovan a diesel?

The T4 Transporters we had in Canada from 1993-1997 had a 5cyl diesel (AAB?) with 5spd, and those things screamed on the highway. You'd be running at 3000+ RPM just to do the speed limit, and anything less than a mild grade you'd be down in 4th gear, and sometimes 3rd if it was steep...lol. Mind you we always had a lot of gear in them, but still...they howled on the highway. No turbo, no OBDII, and no AC...lol.

By comparison the MB vans are luxurious to drive.

No diesel T4s sold here. Mine is a '93, so it got the 2.5L gas engine, and the lowest output version at 109hp, bolted to the optional 4sp 098 slushbox.

It actually moves along OK though. And it has been very reliable for us. It will be a great vehicle for someone whenever I go to sell it.

oilhammer said:

No diesel T4s sold here. Mine is a '93, so it got the 2.5L gas engine, and the lowest output version at 109hp, bolted to the optional 4sp 098 slushbox.
It actually moves along OK though. And it has been very reliable for us. It will be a great vehicle for someone whenever I go to sell it.

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Ahh, OK. I thought you guys got a diesel T4 in the US for one year only. I knew most of them were gas engine models. I think the T4 gassers were somewhat rare in my part of the world...I'd say most of the ones I've ever seen were campers. The T4 cargo vans were all diesels afaik.

I'd say that new MB van is quite a big step up in many ways.

We didn't get any T4 cargo vans either. In fact, the last non-passenger Transporter sold here was in the 1971 model year. Thank you Chicken Tax.

oilhammer said:

...All they did was play a little with the gear ratios and changed the software, but they are essentially the same transmission.

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The "5 speed" in Lawson's 6.0 PowerStroke was like this. It could make 6 ratios, but 2 ended up being really close together. Depending on conditions it would pick a different "4th" ratio as I recall.

-J

Yep, and the later ones are 6 speeds, and you can upgrade the 5 to a 6. Both are based on the original 4 speed E4OD-HD, which is what my 1990 F350 had. That trans came out in '89, replaced the 3sp C6 as the HD automatic option, which was abysmal on the highway as those trucks generally had very low ratio rear axles. There were several companies that sold an aftermarket add on overdrive, but only for 2WD trucks. Coworker had one on his '87 F250. I think it said "Eaton" on it.

IIRC Eaton made the whole trans for the 6.0, it's not a normal Ford unit.

compu_85 said:

IIRC Eaton made the whole trans for the 6.0, it's not a normal Ford unit.

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Says "FoMoCo" all over it, and shares a bunch of pieces with the good ol' E4OD-HD. Also has "Torqueshift" in the side casting. If you saw the transmissions side by side, you'd see pretty clearly they are related.

One big difference is Ford added the ability to run a PTO off the transmission, which until that point was only available with the manuals. So the 2-pedal tow truck was born (and later that day, was itself being towed).

Eaton maybe was contracted by Ford to work on its design though. Like Getrag is responsible for the horrible dual clutch trainwrecks in the Focus and Fiesta.

Today I learned....

The E4OD-HD became the 4R100W in the newer Ford nomenclature. The 5sp behind the 6.0L PS as well as some of the 5.4L and 6.8L Triton engines is known as the 5R110W, and the later 6sp is a 6R140W, but most of the time the 5sp and pretty much all of the time the 6sp is just called the Torqueshift. If you do some internet image searching you'll see the main difference outwardly is the giant PTO plate in the left (driver) side of the case on the 5 and 6sp units.

However, the new-for-2017 F250 gets a special version called the Torqueshift-G, which has some additional features, like rev matching, load-dependent downshifting, etc. Not sure how much that matters, the truck is still off-the-charts ugly to me.

I had an E4OD on my previous plow truck- hated it, probably because it burned up. Few things worse than burned up, nasty atf. My current truck has the 4R100 behind the 7.3. Way better. Almost makes a slushbox tolerable.

Well they are essentially the same thing. Ford just changed their naming system. The AOD-E became the 4R70W (the smaller trans).

They of course updated and improved things along the way, and depending on application some have some different control strategies, but in general the newer ones are better (and much of the improvements can be made to the older ones during an overhaul). But the single biggest improvement is with drive-by-wire engine controls that can back engine power off some during shifts coupled with better line pressure control as well as aggressive use of converter lockup.

This makes for firmer, more positive shifts, but without any harshness associated with those old school "shift kits" and lower ATF temps. Of course, they HAD to make these changes because the newer engines would tear them to shreds otherwise. My '90 F350 made 170hp and 330tq. What is a 6.7L PS now, double that or more? All going through the same basic real estate under the truck? Yeah, gonna need to do some better management of the slushbox for sure!

Yup, whatever revisions they made to the 4R100 internals like clutch packs, planetary gears, and things like control strategy and line pressure made a huge difference.

The 6R transmission is entirely different from the old 5R and is no longer a 3-speed with an overdrive tacked on. But the 6R is on the way out, to be replaced with the 10R ... there is a heavy-duty version coming.

As for the Sprinters ... doesn't surprise me that they have different paint grades but it does surprise me that the white is SO bad. I briefly looked at the Sprinters when I bought my van - the 4-cyl 7-speed drivetrain was just out at the time - but I did not trust their corrosion protection. My ProMaster - which is metallic red! - still looks like new.

Actually, when I asked about the number of pedals, I was thinking I would get an answer like,

" Yeah "

Not that I'm complaining. I just forgot that it was Oilhammer.

Allison also did the five/six speed thing. Same transmission, (basically) just a different controller.

But that's where my auto trans knowledge stops. Now John Deere had a planetary power shift trans that they could double up and end up with something like 14 forward and reverse gears. I heard that they could go WOT at like 1/2 MPH. But that was all green stuff that I have only heard of.

GoFaster said:

The 6R transmission is entirely different from the old 5R and is no longer a 3-speed with an overdrive tacked on..

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Well they sure look the same on the outside, LOL. Maybe you are thinking of the lighter duty 6sp, which IS a totally different transmission... but that is not used in the big Super Duty trucks, and not what I was talking about. That is what the F150, Transit, etc. get. Our shop has had all of these out already. And we have installed more "lead plates" in those lighter duty 6sp transmissions than I can remember. The early ones were under recall, but the later ones (which still break) are not...so we get to do those. Basically the one-piece electrical bus bar taking the place of the traditional internal wiring harness inside the transmission. It has the ATF temp sensor, range position sensor, shaft speed sensors, and connections for all the shift solenoids built in, all the way to and including the pass-through at the rear of the transmission case. Unfortunately, Ford in all their infinite wisdom decided to place it ABOVE the valve body. So you have to drop the pan, drop the valve body, unscrew the lead plate from the top side of the valve body, then bolt it back up making sure the little pin for the range sensor slide is indexed properly... all the while ATF dripping on you. Of course, that is on the F150. On the Transit, which clearly was NEVER intended to even have a slushbox, the pan is strategically placed about an inch above the giant subframe. And since the unibody rails and sheer size of the van makes them difficult to impossible to get on any of our two post lifts, and the subframe is also the mounting points for the engine mounts, steering, and entire front suspension save for the upper strut mounts, that job is daunting to say the least.

Have not had one of the big Aisin boxes out of a Ram yet, though. That thing is huge, it looks much like the ones that many of the tilt-cab Japanese trucks use.

This white Sprinter has been in service since 2008, still looks pretty good to me, and has covered over 300k miles already:



One of our fleet customers.

oilhammer said:

Well they sure look the same on the outside, LOL. Maybe you are thinking of the lighter duty 6sp, which IS a totally different transmission... but that is not used in the big Super Duty trucks, and not what I was talking about. That is what the F150, Transit, etc. get. Our shop has had all of these out already. And we have installed more "lead plates" in those lighter duty 6sp transmissions than I can remember. The early ones were under recall, but the later ones (which still break) are not...so we get to do those. Basically the one-piece electrical bus bar taking the place of the traditional internal wiring harness inside the transmission. It has the ATF temp sensor, range position sensor, shaft speed sensors, and connections for all the shift solenoids built in, all the way to and including the pass-through at the rear of the transmission case. Unfortunately, Ford in all their infinite wisdom decided to place it ABOVE the valve body. So you have to drop the pan, drop the valve body, unscrew the lead plate from the top side of the valve body, then bolt it back up making sure the little pin for the range sensor slide is indexed properly... all the while ATF dripping on you. Of course, that is on the F150. On the Transit, which clearly was NEVER intended to even have a slushbox, the pan is strategically placed about an inch above the giant subframe. And since the unibody rails and sheer size of the van makes them difficult to impossible to get on any of our two post lifts, and the subframe is also the mounting points for the engine mounts, steering, and entire front suspension save for the upper strut mounts, that job is daunting to say the least.
Have not had one of the big Aisin boxes out of a Ram yet, though. That thing is huge, it looks much like the ones that many of the tilt-cab Japanese trucks use.

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Ah, yes. The Transit trans pan. I was able to do an oil change on on, but not a filter change. That would have required dropping the subframe. I wonder how that van is doing now. It should have 200,000 on it by now.