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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old October 9th, 2019, 10:24   #91
oilhammer
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NOx doesn't hang around in the atmosphere long enough for something like that to happen. It actually separates back out on its own, depending on factors like ambient temp, sunlight, humidity, etc. it can happen within hours but more like days. That is what SCR does: it forces the reaction to happen right away, before it leaves the tailpipe, pulling nitrogen and oxygen back apart instantly with urea, which itself gets converted into mostly water vapor.

NOx is a problem in high concentrations in high sunlight with little to no air movement. The LA basin is a perfect spot for this to be a problem, however it is also a perfect spot for all the rest of airborne pollutants to cause problems.

The silly thing about the EPA's hard on for NOx and diesels is that they never seem to want to mention the FAR lower [everything else] that is coming out of the modern diesel's tailpipe vs. other gasoline cars, let alone the fuel economy difference. When the TDIs were "cheating", the levels of all the rest of the pollutants was down in the single digits of allowable limits. Meaning, they were running really, really clean (hence the clean tailpipes) for things like CO, HC, PM, etc. And even then, the allowable NOx limits were already said so ridiculously low that "10 times the allowable limit" is STILL a teeny tiny amount in the grand scheme of things.
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Old October 9th, 2019, 11:08   #92
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Completely agree.

The emissions measured for the Passat TDI in the 4,000 km "multi-state" testing in the WVU/ICCT study* were:

0.01 g/mi (THC)
0.0006 g/mi (NMHC (>90% of THC was methane))
0.03 g/mi (CO)
0.0002 g/mi PM (included 3 regeneration events)

*Thompson et al., "In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States." International Council on Clean Transportation Report, May 15, 2014 (Pages 77-86)

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Old October 9th, 2019, 11:31   #93
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Dog farts pollute more.
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Old October 9th, 2019, 21:32   #94
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Starting to feel pretty vindicated when the time comes to 'unfix' my Touareg.
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Old October 11th, 2019, 18:09   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Completely agree.

The emissions measured for the Passat TDI in the 4,000 km "multi-state" testing in the WVU/ICCT study* were:

0.01 g/mi (THC)
0.0006 g/mi (NMHC (>90% of THC was methane))
0.03 g/mi (CO)
0.0002 g/mi PM (included 3 regeneration events)

*Thompson et al., "In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States." International Council on Clean Transportation Report, May 15, 2014 (Pages 77-86)
I have been beating the drum on that one on other sites and publications everytime one of them blows the emissions scandal out of proportion, which is pretty much every media outlet due to lack of technical understanding and laziness to actually go through and get the full scope of things.

They get so fired up over the NOx issue, it's almost as if they believe NOx is the only regulated pollutant.

It doesn't go over well with those who have an already established point of view based on the poorly informed media that can't get any of these stories right to save their lives.

The vaunted Jamie Kitman thinks Adblue is called that because the fluid is blue... I can't make this stuff up.

I call him out on it and other inaccuracies in his article and I get another commenter responding to me "I'd be careful, Jamie is a well respected journalist!"

I don't give a crap how well respected anyone is. If they're dead wrong, I'm calling them out on it. I'm not here to play nice and suck up to those who are well respected, I only care about what the reality of the situation is. If he's misinformed, I'm going to correct his ass. I'm tired of watching the image of diesel being murdered all due to misinformation and journalists who can't be bothered to do their due diligence and give readers the full scope of emissions.
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Old October 11th, 2019, 19:25   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU View Post
I have been beating the drum on that one on other sites and publications everytime one of them blows the emissions scandal out of proportion, which is pretty much every media outlet due to lack of technical understanding and laziness to actually go through and get the full scope of things.

They get so fired up over the NOx issue, it's almost as if they believe NOx is the only regulated pollutant.

It doesn't go over well with those who have an already established point of view based on the poorly informed media that can't get any of these stories right to save their lives.

The vaunted Jamie Kitman thinks Adblue is called that because the fluid is blue... I can't make this stuff up.

I call him out on it and other inaccuracies in his article and I get another commenter responding to me "I'd be careful, Jamie is a well respected journalist!"

I don't give a crap how well respected anyone is. If they're dead wrong, I'm calling them out on it. I'm not here to play nice and suck up to those who are well respected, I only care about what the reality of the situation is. If he's misinformed, I'm going to correct his ass. I'm tired of watching the image of diesel being murdered all due to misinformation and journalists who can't be bothered to do their due diligence and give readers the full scope of emissions.

Kinda like an NYT article about Fitzgerald and the gliders they build?
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Old October 11th, 2019, 19:30   #97
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I just listened to this podcast interview with an attorney who represents clients in the diesel performance sphere. From what he's saying, the EPA is really just cracking down on dpf and egr deletes and the software that accompanies those mods.

https://youtu.be/PW7Dzlt66Rs
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Old October 12th, 2019, 07:14   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt-98AHU View Post
I have been beating the drum on that one on other sites and publications everytime one of them blows the emissions scandal out of proportion, blah blah

Apparently your feelings were terribly hurt by whatever awful treatment you received as a commenter somewhere, poor you, but you are dancing around the basic point, which is that automakers are not supposed to engineer their fleets to what you or they think is a reasonable standard. They are supposed to follow the laws of the land, which they did not do. And made millions. It really is quite simple. And yes, they could have complied. It would have caused concessions and compromises, both to fuel efficiency and in areas like including larger urea tanks, etc. They would have had to pass these costs along to the consumer. They would have had angry customers complaining about their crappy emissions components, which they have now, anyway. They chose to take the ethically bankrupt route. And probably barely thought about it.

This really was an interesting conversation with a fair amount of give and take, an exchange of thought provoking views, until you tried to make us digress into relitigating an old, dumber version of the argument. Do you really think that it is ok to ignore laws you don’t agree with? Is this case on a par with, say, refusing to kill innocent people just because your commanding officer told you to do it? You know what, let’s not even bother. I just pity anyone who ever does a deal with you, ever. You seem like a person who’d “forget” to tell a buyer about the termite infestation in your house for sale, and sleep like a baby at night. After all, everyone does it, right? You’re really the victim here.
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Old October 12th, 2019, 07:58   #99
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Default EPA flexing their muscles

PS: I was watching a TV drama last night (from the 1960’s) that featured a mock trial of a concentration camp doctor who was infecting prisoners with bubonic plague, in order to develop a vaccine. He kept insisting that he was trying to make a historic contribution to humanity. Yes, some patients died, but it could hardly be compared to the lives his work would save. One of the other characters stated he shouldn’t be executed for his actions because he was a “moral imbecile,” thus not able to fully understand the wrong he did. It all seemed somehow relevant to the world we live in today.

When you put ”do the right thing” up against all the clever ways to justify corrupt, dishonest, and unfair dealings it hardly seems like a fair fight, does it?
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Old October 12th, 2019, 07:59   #100
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I think that's a bit harsh. Matt is a very thoughtful mechanic who happens to derive much of his livelihood from VW tdi's. Try to see things from his perspective. The absence of new tdi's absolutely impacts him more than most of us. It's only natural for somebody in his position to rationalize why the regs that VW flagrantly violated were unfair to begin with.
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Old October 12th, 2019, 08:39   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
I think that's a bit harsh. Matt is a very thoughtful mechanic who happens to derive much of his livelihood from VW tdi's. Try to see things from his perspective. The absence of new tdi's absolutely impacts him more than most of us. It's only natural for somebody in his position to rationalize why the regs that VW flagrantly violated were unfair to begin with.


I apologize then. The moral imbecile remark was not directed at Matt. But VW could have complied, as I stated above. It would have made for more business for those who take care of servicing TDI’s, not less. In the vast majority of cases, two wrongs do not make a right. I just don’t think that we are in a good position right now, as a society, to understand the ethical dimensions of situations we are presented with on a daily basis.
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Old October 12th, 2019, 12:17   #102
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Default Very shallow information :-(

I believe the true intention of post # 95 by Matt-98AHU has been lost by poster Mythdoc.

I do not think at all that poster Matt-98AHU was trying to cover up for VW top management dishonesty, greed and malice on post # 95.

To me, personally, to give an overall environmental score to the total emissions from a passenger vehicle you need some kind of scoring system using a Life Cycle Emission model for passenger vehicles, such as the one from Argonne National Labs called GREET. Unfortunately this is too much trouble for the average American to investigate properly, so instead we watch the news or listen to FM and/or AM radio stations that give, in general terms, very shallow information. Well frankly they provide mostly entertainment. It is almost like talking down to people and insulting their intelligence. So then unfortunately many journalists do not do their homework properly and do not learn about the overall pollutants and CO2 emissions from a passenger vehicle and they only pay attention to one, in this case NOX.

So, perhaps it is not quite misinformation that gets disseminated but very shallow information :-(
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Old October 12th, 2019, 13:03   #103
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Default EPA flexing their muscles

^^This has all been argued before in other threads that were about dieselgate specifically. This particular thread has now migrated back to the old argument. I was part of allowing that to happen, much to my chagrin. I didn’t miss the point, Tikal. I’ve heard it over and over. I also know the data. Maybe you missed *my* point that the regulations were known to everybody. And that disagreeing with them does not justify violating them. Would the automotive press be more open to presenting a nuanced picture of the different types and amounts of pollutants had VW’s colossal fraud never been perpetrated? The answer is obvious. In fact, that was indeed the case before the scandal broke. The vast majority of the press given to TDI’s was favorable pre-scandal.

Anyway, apologies again for being harsh. Dieselgate is clearly the wound that will never heal over, for many. If anyone wants to talk about the original thread topic, I’m still in. Otherwise, I’m out.
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Last edited by Mythdoc; October 12th, 2019 at 13:13.
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Old October 12th, 2019, 16:29   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythdoc View Post
Apparently your feelings were terribly hurt by whatever awful treatment you received as a commenter somewhere, poor you, but you are dancing around the basic point, which is that automakers are not supposed to engineer their fleets to what you or they think is a reasonable standard. They are supposed to follow the laws of the land, which they did not do. And made millions. It really is quite simple. And yes, they could have complied. It would have caused concessions and compromises, both to fuel efficiency and in areas like including larger urea tanks, etc. They would have had to pass these costs along to the consumer. They would have had angry customers complaining about their crappy emissions components, which they have now, anyway. They chose to take the ethically bankrupt route. And probably barely thought about it.

This really was an interesting conversation with a fair amount of give and take, an exchange of thought provoking views, until you tried to make us digress into relitigating an old, dumber version of the argument. Do you really think that it is ok to ignore laws you don’t agree with? Is this case on a par with, say, refusing to kill innocent people just because your commanding officer told you to do it? You know what, let’s not even bother. I just pity anyone who ever does a deal with you, ever. You seem like a person who’d “forget” to tell a buyer about the termite infestation in your house for sale, and sleep like a baby at night. After all, everyone does it, right? You’re really the victim here.
For the record, I've never, nor will I ever, defend willfully cheating rules on VW's part. I will, however, argue that maybe the regulations changed too dramatically too rapidly for the technologies to properly be engineered to be reliable, long-lived and cost-effective.

My main beef has been the media as a whole is now attempting to tear down diesel technology as a whole and more or less encourage its abandonment and banishment, and they're doing so with very poor information. So, guys like me merely point out that how much NOx the cheating cars were emitting is still a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, especially when you see how much lower emissions they are in literally every other regulated category. Again, not excusing the excess NOx, just attempting to put into perspective the actual numbers and effects vs. the hysterics encountered in a hit/click driven media.

The article I was referencing is found here: https://jalopnik.com/the-big-diesel-...ion-1837177598

See how many inaccuracies you can find... and if you want to see my ranting responses, look for "dieseldub" in the comment section.

Jamie "Adblue is Blue" Kitman is my new name for this ill-informed journalist.

Hell, we could just start with his opening paragraph for an accuracy check:

Quote:
Who can forget Dieselgate, the headline-grabbing, reputation-destroying pollution scandal of 2015? In which Volkswagen AG, one of the planet’s largest carmakers, was exposed for installing defeat devices on up to 11 million of its diesels to trick regulators around the world into thinking these cars complied with emissions standards when in fact they didn’t come close, exceeding U.S. limits, for example, by 40 times or more.
Wrong, it wasn't 40 times or more. It was 10 times and upto 40 times occasionally. The actual average of emissions over the limit they were producing was somewhere closer to 15x by the numbers.

This article is a hit piece, pure and simple. And it's a shame this is so rampant in the media, because all it does is give Donny Trump credibility when he bellows "fake news!".

As I'm parsing through the article, it looks as if it has been edited after my comments were made, since he no longer calls adblue blue in color like the article originally stated.

No correction was issued, the article was just simply, quietly edited without an edit history to review.

I then also came to the defense of at least BMW, despite them having lawsuits flung their way in the U.S. over cheating and Kitman insinuating guilt without due process, a judge did recently throw out a case against BMW due to lack of evidence. And to further back my stance that diesels can indeed be made properly clean to these incredibly strict regulations, I pointed out that the initial ICCT/WVU study included 3 vehicles, the two that were very far outside of the limits were both VWs, the 3rd was pretty much right on target, it was a BMW, adding some evidence that maybe BMW never cheated at all in the U.S. despite being implicated in Europe as a cheater. Just another case of lawyers smelling blood in the water and slinging lawsuits wherever they think they might stick without full evidence and studies to back up their claims. See if the mob mentality can score them a few extra bucks.

I'm just tired of seeing diesel as a whole, not VW specifically, being viewed as impossibly dirty and a technology that should be abandoned when by the numbers, they're cleaner than gasoline engines in literally every regulated form except NOx, and even then, the number is so insanely close to zero, who cares? It's such a minor improvement on NOx for a gas engine, but the gas engine produces more vapors that are released to atmosphere every time you open the gas gap and fill the thing up. Diesels emit less HC, CO, NMOGs and, thanks to particulate filters, less particulates than gas engines too. Literally. Every. Single. Regulated. Pollutant. Except NOx.

Do you genuinely believe like the rest of these ill-informed journalists that diesel is inherently bad and should be banned based on the numbers? Should I pull up CARB Executive Order emissions approvals on some common car models to prove my point?
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Old October 12th, 2019, 16:58   #105
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Oh I learned a lot from Dieselgate. I learned that the rules regarding NOx simply became too drastic too quickly, and I learned I must take better care of the older cars I already have since I evidently won't be buying anything new ever again.

It is like they said "OK, the are lowering the speed limits on the Interstate, from 70 to 60, to save fuel (they've done this before). Only we REALLY want to save fuel, so we are just gonna drop it to 40 MPH". Actually, and Matt knows the figures better than I do, it would probably be more like 5 MPH. The cut was THAT MUCH, that fast.
Just to respond to this part and put the numbers in perspective:

I believe the earliest VW diesels were certified to emit no more than 1.2 g/mi NOx or so. I think by the time the earliest TDIs came to our shores, they were more like 1.0 g/mi.... and then 0.9.

By the time the PDs arrived here, that number was down to 0.7 g/mi through the end of 2006.

The 2009 commonrails and later were supposed to be certified to tier 2 bin 5 rules, which meant they were to emit no more than 0.07 g/mi NOx... literally moving the decimal point over one from what regulations were in 2006.

We didn't view PDs as being overly dirty at the time... some of us still don't, so long as the cam isn't worn... or it has bad injector seals... or a leaking EGR pipe or cooler flap. Heck, PDs make just about the same fuel pressure coming out of the injector as a commonrail does to reduce particulates, it just isn't as finely controlled with numerous injection events per cycle like a commonrail is capable of.

So yeah, when they say emits "ten to forty times, averaging closer to 15 times" the limit, I just kind of shrug and say "sounds about like what an older TDI emits." Not to mention they produce even less of every other pollutant than earlier TDIs, especially particulates...

Not that it should be excused, but I do like to counter the hysterics surrounding diesel technology as a whole thanks to the scandal and respond with actual numbers and historical perspective.
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