High pressure pump failure, fuel in crankcase. Now other issues...

Flytofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2007
Location
Spokane
TDI
None yet, but soon!
The week before Christmas, the high pressure fuel pump under the hood failed, causing the crankcase to fill with lots of diesel fuel. The oil light came on about two hundred feet before my driveway, so it wasn't driven much after the failure occurred.
I towed the car to the dealership where they determined, after I mentioned what the problem was, that the fuel pump had failed, causing fuel to get into the crankcase. Since the car was no longer under warranty, I had to pay $819 to have it replaced and have the oil changed. I'm thinking that when I go pick up the car, it will be running like a champ. The dealership even had the master technician check the cam bearing tolerances and they all came back good. No damage done.
Well, I go to start the car at the dealership this Friday and it starts like a true POS. I waited for the GP light to go out and then cranked it over. It took just a bit, but it cranked and caught. It ran extremely rough and it was smoking like a chain smoking whore... The CEL was on, and I immediately shut it off. I went back inside to the service desk and said that we've got a problem. They had someone start the car again and take it over to their repair bays and scan the car.
It came back with GP failure on 1-4 and something about the EGR having issues... I drove the car home, as the service individual told me it would be okay and proceeded to test all four GP's. All except one were shot, so today I replaced all four. What's scary is that one had the electrode completely missing and two others were way short. The fourth was way short too, but not as bad as the others.
I also pulled the EGR valve and cleaned that extremely well. The butterfly valve that is just upstream from the EGR was clean and moved well. The EGR was definitely gunked up, so I cleaned it well. The movement was good on it. I'm not too sure what else it could be with the EGR system.
So, after explaining all of this, does anyone have any idea's on what could have caused all four GP's to fail while the dealership had it, along with it throwing a code for the EGR system? Could there be an issue with the timing of the HP fuel pump that is causing some issues? I would hate to have to drive it back out to the dealership and cause any more damage...
Also, the dealership is going to be on the hook for breaking my engine cover... The two ears that hold one of the rubber grommets in when you take it off were broken off and now the grommet just stays attached to the ball when you pull the cover off.
I'm looking for any kind of ideas you can think of. I'm a fairly competent mechanic, but this crap about the missing electrodes off the GP's has me concerned, along with the fact that it's not starting very well and smoking like a champ when it does. The EGR system shouldn't have any issues with it, especially since it was not throwing a CEL before I took it to the dealership.


Oh, and I forgot to mention that the GP light goes out and doesn't blink when the car is running.
 
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paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
Were they ceramic glow plugs? If so, you have a serious problem. Ceramic bits drop into cylinders and don't play well with the head and pistons.

Truthfully, cold fuel on hot glowplugs could have caused them to shatter. That would be related to the pump filling the cylinders with fuel when it failed.

Car could potentially have experienced a hydrolock situation. More damage to rods.

If I misunderstand the failure mechanism for the tandem pumps, I apologize in advance.

There was a recall on some PD engined Jettas for tandem pump failures. Any chance your Golf used the same tandem pump? I have no way of checking, but some of our member have the ability to check by VIN. Anybody?
 
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PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Your Golf may have been subject to the tandem pump recall. Find out. Ceramic plugs are used in the BEW engine, and they broke off. Paramedick is correct that the breakage can ruin the engine and may be related to the crankcase full of fuel. My guess is your smoky rough start was mainly due to no glow plugs.

Also, I think that this (glow plug bits in the cylinder) can damage the turbocharger turbine (exhaust side) and could cause a later failure. Some of the bits have to have exited through the exhaust valves and through the turbo.

If the dealer notified you of the pump recall and if you did not take it in, then probally you can't make a claim, but if VW failed to notify you, that may be a differennt story.

--Nate
 

Flytofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2007
Location
Spokane
TDI
None yet, but soon!
After checking the website that 2004STARWARSTDI supplied, it appears that the tandempump was recalled. From what I remember, the prior owner had it replaced after it was recalled, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll have to call the number and verify if it was done or not.

On to a different subject now. How could the glow plugs potentially shatter if they were sprayed with cold fuel? I'm definitely aware that the failure of the GP's could lead to a problem with the piston and cylinder wall, but I'm not so certain as to how they could break in the first place. Would it have potentially been at start up one day when it was really friggin cold? If that's the case, wouldn't all those who own these cars in cold climates be running the risk of having GP issues every time they start the car?

My understanding of the high pressure pump failure was that a seal ruptured and then ended up leaking fuel into the oiling side of the motor, not into the cylinder. Since this is a common rail system, the only way for the cylinder to pressurize with fuel is for the injector to stick open and then it just starts compressing fuel into the crankcase by leaking it by the rings on the piston.
I don't believe this to be the issue.

However, I could now see that if one or three of the GP's failed, and now the cylinder wall is scored, it could be allowing fuel to gradually escape by the rings and allowing the crankcase to slowly be filling with fuel. I drove the car around 18 miles home the other day and the oil level seems to be fine. However, I can't get over the GP system failure and also the EGR issues. They shouldn't have cropped up that quickly. Besides, there were no GP issues when i brought the vehicle in to be repaired, and now all the sudden it's got these issues, if anything happened, it happened while in the care of the dealership...
 

paramedick

TDIClub Enthusiast, Vendor
Joined
Jul 29, 2001
Location
Versailles, Kentucky
TDI
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
Fish, after doing some more reading about the mode of tandem pump failure, it appears I am wrong. Sorry. I was under the impression that they flooded the cylinders.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
I have read of at least one other confirmed case (on this list) of the engine case filling with diesel fuel due to a failed tandem pump. Usually, I think these pumps leak externally, but not always. How does it leak internally? One way may be because this pump is driven by the end of the engine camshaft. There is a pump seal that seals the mainshaft of the pump, and if this seal leaks, it would be likely that fuel would spill out past the pump shaft, right where the end of the camshaft engages it. This area would have to be under the valve cover, on the driver's side, so it would leak internally, into the head and be returned to the crankcase, via the oil return holes in the head. I also think there may be a little O-ring for an oil passage to lubricate the pump (like the vacuum pump on the ALH engines). Possibly, the pump fuel passage o-rings could leak, contaminating the engine oil passage.

Can those of us with BEW pumpe duse TDIs with the older style tendem pumps either install the new-style pump, or at least the new pump gasket with metal backing as a safety measure?

Someone awhile back posted pictures of the new-style gasket (o-ring formed to fit the tandem pump outline, with sheet metal backing to prevent fuel from dumping into the engine) and there was a discussion about either retrofiting it to older pumps, or something like that. I used the "search" and could not find it.

Evidently, the VW dealer does not sell this gasket separately, but I think someone found a source. I located part number 038-145-215.

I would either like to buy a new tandem pump, or just the new style mounting seal (for a lot less) and install it, to prevent the possibility of a catastrophic engine failure due to fuel in the oil.

Anyone remember this thread, or know where to get the new seal? ALso, will the new-style seal fit the older pumps (the ones without the metal backing plate) that use O-rings?

--Nate
 
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Flytofish

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2007
Location
Spokane
TDI
None yet, but soon!
paramedick said:
Fish, after doing some more reading about the mode of tandem pump failure, it appears I am wrong. Sorry. I was under the impression that they flooded the cylinders.
No sweat Paramedick!

As it pertains to the GP's and the EGR failure, any idea on what you all think might be the case? I'm not driving this thing until I can get it figured out. I'm still freaked out by the cracked GP ends, which may have caused some issues, but it does run smoothly and it seems to have good power...
I know that the dealership had the head cover off to check the camshaft bearing tolerances, which leads me to believe that if they found other issues, they would have told me.

I think that I'm going to call the dealership on Monday and ***** them out about the plastic cover being broken and also have them diagnose and remedy the other problems with the GP issues.

Anyone be able to tell me where the GP relay is on a 2005 Golf TDI?
 

2004STARWARSTDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Location
LAKELAND, FL
TDI
2004 Platinum Gray GLS Jetta / 2006 Silver Jetta with DSG
GP relay

The GP relay is located under the E Box> E Box (electronics box) in the left rear engine compartment is sealed with a plastic cover.
 

MOGolf

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2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
If the dealer removed the GPs for any reason, and mishandled them, they could get cracked. The cracks may not be visible to the human eye. As soon as they heat up, they can shatter due to expansion. The bits fall into the engine and proceed to get pounded by the piston into the head, get down into the piston ring area, or anything else you can imagine for a foreign object in the cylinder. I saw dings in pistons (one at the edge that caused the cylinder wall to get scored) from an engine with the same situation as you described.

VW no longer supplies ceramic glow plugs. The replacements are steel plugs and require an ECM reflash.

Your situation now is that the cylinder head must be removed to assess the extent of damage.
 

oldpoopie

Vendor
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May 14, 2001
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2001 golf gl, 2006 jetta, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle
I'd call VWOA and begin a complaint. I highly doubt the plugs were damaged before........
 

Flytofish

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Jan 9, 2007
Location
Spokane
TDI
None yet, but soon!
So I had the conversation with the service department at the dealership that I had do the pump work. The service rep is going to be speaking with his manager and they're going to be working out something on how to get the car towed out to their location to get it checked out again...
Needless to say, I'm not a very happy camper right now and am extremely upset with the dis-service that I received from them.

I'm so pissed off right now, I can't even see straight...
 

weedeater

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Joined
Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
TDI
Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
pumping a few gallons of fuel into the crankcase does not make for good times. There were incidents reported on the early PDs where this kind of tandem pump failure occured and the motor hydrolocked (you get that much liquid in the crankcase and it will find its way to the combustion chamber).

EGR could be anything from a bad MAF to an O2 sensor. don't worry about it now.

I agree that the only way to know about possible plug-related damage will be to pull the head. You might try a compression and leakdown test first.
 
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Flytofish

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Jan 9, 2007
Location
Spokane
TDI
None yet, but soon!
Well, after waiting all day for the dealership to call back, I just called VWoA and filed a complaint. I'm sick and tired of dealing with pathetic and inept people when it comes to something this serious.

Good to know on the EGR side of things. Yeah, the dealership is going to be completely liable for any damages that have occurred to the motor. I hope to hear something soon.
 

MOGolf

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Joined
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underneath something
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2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
weedeater said:
pumping a few gallons of fuel into the crankcase does not make for good times. There were incidents reported on the early PDs where this kind of tandem pump failure occured and the motor hydrolocked (you get that much liquid in the crankcase and it will find its way to the combustion chamber).

EGR could be anything from a bad MAF to an O2 sensor. don't worry about it now.

I agree that the only way to know about possible plug-related damage will be to pull the head. You might try a compression and leakdown test first.
Any more cranking of the engine can make for more damage if the GP bits are between piston and cylinder wall, or like the one I saw where the edge of the piston had been damaged and was scuffing the cylinder wall. It is best to just remove the head to find the full extent of damage.

Failure of the o-rings on the injectors can also lead to fuel going into the crankcase.
 
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