ALH Windage tray in BS Delete

Wondering if anyone can comment on supporting the ALH Windage tray when doing a BS Delete? On myturbodiesel, a member used a spring and safety wire to support the ALH Windage tray. Why would this member have done that?From what I can tell, idparts or boraparts does not include these parts in their kits. Is the spring and safety wire needed? Do I understand correctly that the spring would push against the bottom of the oil pan in turn pushing back on the ALH windage tray to support it? I also noticed there are two tabs on the ALH Windage tray that get "snipped off" that would otherwise fit into the hole that is plugged as per the BS delete procedure.

As in the other thread, if you have a little of the BSM oil feed 1/8" NPT blocking-plug sitting proud of the block surface, the windage tray pretty well stays in place:



This mine (back when installed) with the pan ready to go on - a little blurry, but you can see how the windage tray sits fine.

Thanks Windex... I was thinking there was more of a support issue in terms of holding it up. Like the spring and the wire were essentially windage tray viagra to hold it up tight to the block? I read that it's only held with one bold that is shared with the oil pump, which seemed a little weak to me.

Windex said:

As in the other thread, if you have a little of the BSM oil feed 1/8" NPT blocking-plug sitting proud of the block surface, the windage tray pretty well stays in place:


This mine (back when installed) with the pan ready to go on - a little blurry, but you can see how the windage tray sits fine.

Click to expand...

By itself it is weak, but the NPT plug provides enough support (along with the one bolt)to hold it in place while you install the pan. The Pan holds it in place once installed.

Without the NPT plug in place it tends to pivot out of place and would need some other method of retention in order to install the pan.

Oh... I see! That makes total sense to me now!!! I couldn't figure out why everyone seemed okay with the windage tray only being held up by one measly bolt. Now I understand though, it's that plug that keeps the windage tray stationary while the oil pan is being bolted into place and it's the oil pan that actually keeps the windage tray supported. Thank you so much for explaining that. I still don't understand though what the member on myturbodiesel was trying to accomplish with that spring and wire, but that doesn't really matter now.

Windex said:

By itself it is weak, but the NPT plug provides enough support (along with the one bolt)to hold it in place while you install the pan. The Pan holds it in place once installed.

Without the NPT plug in place it tends to pivot out of place and would need some other method of retention in order to install the pan.

Click to expand...

I understand why.

I've placed the windage tray in my oil pan to see whether the oil pan might hold it in place. It may provide some damping by scraping on the sides, but I don't think it will effectively hold the windage tray. I can easily move the tray 3/4" into the pan. The walls in the area where I'm concerned are parallel to the possible movement (normal to the bottom flange and the plug's face).

Since I'm still waiting for transmission stuff from Hans, I'm pausing my effort in-process to see if I can find an appropriate spring. The plug helps a little bit, but not enough in my view. This thing will be vibrating around under this little diesel for the next couple hundred thousand miles and I want it to stay put. I don't want a stress fracture and chunks of composite floating around in there.

The pocket where the spring was installed in that photo on MyTurboDiesel.com looks like a natural place to put a spring. It's a 1" square flat spot and the surface is (at least somewhat) parallel to the face of the oil pan. I've never removed the oil pan from my ALH, and I wonder what other features are used to fix the position.

So... that makes me wonder if there are differences in the ALH oil pan. What keeps the windage tray supported in an ALH engine?

Mirage said:

I understand why.

I've placed the windage tray in my oil pan to see whether the oil pan might hold it in place. It may provide some damping by scraping on the sides, but I don't think it will effectively hold the windage tray. I can easily move the tray 3/4" into the pan. The walls in the area where I'm concerned are parallel to the possible movement (normal to the bottom flange and the plug's face).

Since I'm still waiting for transmission stuff from Hans, I'm pausing my effort in-process to see if I can find an appropriate spring. The plug helps a little bit, but not enough in my view. This thing will be vibrating around under this little diesel for the next couple hundred thousand miles and I want it to stay put. I don't want a stress fracture and chunks of composite floating around in there.

The pocket where the spring was installed in that photo on MyTurboDiesel.com looks like a natural place to put a spring. It's a 1" square flat spot and the surface is (at least somewhat) parallel to the face of the oil pan. I've never removed the oil pan from my ALH, and I wonder what other features are used to fix the position.

Click to expand...

Anyone? Should we be installing the spring or a bolt and wedge like this user did?

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/thread...lance-shaft-oil-pump-delete.15959/#post-75921

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/threads/b5-5-passat-tdi-alh-oil-pump-upgrade-pics.20704/

Buehler?

Eh, Just the oil feed plug and the one bolt in mine (no springs). No issues over the 50k I have had the delete.

Thanks for the response Windex... it appears that both ideas of supporting the windage tray use safety wire that goes through the windage tray. I can't help but wonder if with time the vibes of the diesel engine are going to cause that wire to pull through the plastic. At the same time, I like the idea of it being better supported.

Windex said:

Eh, Just the oil feed plug and the one bolt in mine (no springs). No issues over the 50k I have had the delete.

Click to expand...

Just pick one and go with it!

I have a used BSM I'll likely be installing this summer. If you want to wait, I'll be able to show how mine held up once I get the pan off.

So... just got my parts today and I'm looking at the windage tray and wondered why a bolt couldn't be installed on the opposide side of the block where the plug is installed. Looking at my windage tray there appears to be a mating area that is flat and would be a perfect place to do this. This is my first attempt at posting a pic... so here it goes

All, I posted this information on MyTurboDiesel, and meant to put a copy here. Here it is:

I asked around for some suitable springs and some friends threw some my way, most of which were unsuitable, including super-stiff valve springs from a Chrysler big-block! I was picking up some applicance parts at Menards and decided to go through some of the bins there. That's where I found this:



It was on the long side, but it seemed like it wouldn't be too stiff. Once I unpackaged it and compressed it to the length it would experience in operation, I decided that it was about right. It would be better if the outer diameter was 1", so that it would fit snug, but that's OK.

I drilled some tiny holes in the windage tray's pocket and safety-wired it in there.



I used some needle-nose pliers to arc the twisted parts over, so that the tops were turned back toward the plastic. There's a decent amount of room, here, under one of the main bearing caps. One wouldn't want the wires to make their way fore or aft, though!



So, I installed the windage tray, and the spring is hanging there. When I installed the oil pan, I had to take care to ensure that the spring didn't get bent over.
In my engineering judgement, this oughtta work fine. In operation, though, we'll see!

Note the appearance of that awful automatic behind the engine. I've received all of my parts from Dutch Auto and I finally removed it today. All of my efforts are slow, as I can't put as much time into my diesel hobby as I would like.

It may be in another post; does anyone know the size of the holes in the original crank sprocket that gets removed for the BSM delete? I have some existing pullers but pre-fabbing the jaws to fit through would be useful.