www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD)

VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 17th, 2017, 19:57   #16
munly
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Default

also the injectors were purchased from concept 1 in calgary. they are the same injectors that CTS Turbo carriers here in Vancouver. they are no name nozzles but made in Italy. Owain and the shop that did my injectors said they were quality nozzles. the shop that did my nozzles said he had installed a dozen or more sets without issue...although most of these were 205's.
munly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2017, 19:57   #17
vanbcguy
Veteran Member
 
vanbcguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC
Default

Your best bet would probably be to find another set of injectors for testing purposes. You'll have down time no matter what, there's barely any shops out there with the equipment to properly service TDI injectors in the first place, let alone do them while you wait.

NW Fuel Injection in Langley can check your modified injectors out but you'll probably have to leave them with them for a few days at least - qualified shops are usually busy. They built mine for me about 4 years ago, I had to leave them with them for about a week.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
__________________
My build thread: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32967.0
vanbcguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2017, 21:21   #18
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

So let me get this clear, you bought nozzles, had them installed in a set of injectors. Went to the installer where your ORIGINAL injectors were removed and a seperate reworked set were installed, with seating problems.

Sounds like the real problem is the 2nd set of injectors. And BTW, seating with the "flat of a large screwdriver" on top is a recipe for uneven pressures. New or annealed washers? Read Franko6's recent excellent and detailed installation procedure here;

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=483686

Did you watch? I won't go to a shop anymore where they won't let me observe. "insurance liabilities" is the usual excuse for shooing you out of the shop while they work on YOUR car.

Never seize on the injector bodies? Why? Didn't clean the seats I'll bet. No expert here, but cleanliness is next to godliness when it comes to anything to do with the fuel delivery system.

Did they really clean the "new" set? Or did the underpaid kid who
started 2 months ago get given the job to scrub them with a wire brush in the dirty parts cleaner sink. Balanced the springs? Sounds like you've got crap in them to me.

BTW, I'm cleaning up a set as we speak, including some pretty carboned up injectors. By the time I've got them apart, and carefully cleaned, I'll have a couple hours in them. And then I'll take 'em to the Jeff who will almost certainly clean the nozzles again, and inspect the bodies carefully.

And where did your old injectors go?

My $.02
__________________
RC Stage 4: 11mm pump, 17/22, .230 nozzles, 3bar MAP:2.5" Exhaust: Koni Reds HD Springs, ~1"lift:VR6 fr swaybar, Top strut & rear tie bar: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16 GMax AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SBC2 End, .717 5th, Peloquin LSD, Fluidampr: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW racks:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 17th, 2017, 21:54   #19
munly
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Default

Sorry...the nozzles were purchased from concept 1. Not injectors. The new nozzles were mounted to the stock/original injectors.
munly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2017, 04:33   #20
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: PA Dutch Country
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by munly View Post
Sorry...the nozzles were purchased from concept 1. Not injectors. The new nozzles were mounted to the stock/original injectors.
Ahhh, ok. I'll still stand by my distant diagnosis that you've got some crap somewhere in the system. IQ jumping a point or 2 sounds like a blockage to me.

I suspect I have the same nozzles, bought off Ebay for little money, seller swore they were from Italy. I rolled the dice and they've been fine for the last 15k. I did take the precaution of buying another set of injectors, used, so I had very little down time. Had them cleaned and set up by a local diesel shop, and installed them myself. I did buy the metalnerd slide hammer tool. That makes seating a snap.
The dedicated amateur can do as good a job as the pro, just usually a lot slower, unfettered by fiscal/time constraints.

Good luck!
__________________
RC Stage 4: 11mm pump, 17/22, .230 nozzles, 3bar MAP:2.5" Exhaust: Koni Reds HD Springs, ~1"lift:VR6 fr swaybar, Top strut & rear tie bar: XXIO Racing Rims, 215/55ZR16 GMax AS03's, 10mm/20mm spacers, 35# @: Ventectomy: Atlas skid plate: 02J, SBC2 End, .717 5th, Peloquin LSD, Fluidampr: TT Short Shifter: Bosal Hitch: VW racks:
Rrusse11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2017, 06:52   #21
munly
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Default

Rrusse. If it is a blockage how do I go about fixing this?
munly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2017, 08:32   #22
U4ick
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: texas
Default

If I was in your situation and had to depend on others to fix my car I think I would start backtracking by going back to Owain and politely asking him to temporarily remove the tune (even though it is not your problem) until you get the nozzles and fueling issues sorted out.

My next move would be to show up at the mechanic that did your nozzles and have a " come to Jesus " talk, he won't be able to blame it on the tune. If you get no satisfaction there at least you can take it somewhere else without the tune being an issue as to why they don't want to work on it.
__________________
The time that you enjoy wasting....is not wasted time.
U4ick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2017, 10:42   #23
UhOh
Veteran Member
 
UhOh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by munly View Post
ok...here's what happened as best i tell you. i'll be as impartial as possible. i didn't start this thread to slag Malone or the shop that installed my injectors. i started it to get some info on what could be going on with my car.

also, Owain has been very helpful and patient trying to find a solution. the shop that did the injectors tried to help as well after the nozzles and tune were installed.

the car before the nozzle/tune was running fine. smooth power (but stock power) no issues that i noticed while driving. it did have a check engine light for the egr delete. i'm not a mechanic, but as far as i could tell there was no issues with the car, except for poor milage (about 36mpg city driving). i do my own maintenance, filters, oil, intake cleaning, cts, thermostat, etc.

on thursday (nov 16) i drove from west vancouver to surrey (45 mins) to a shop near Malone's office. at that shop the nozzles were installed. i went to drive over to Malone after the install and the car was running rough (i.e. : missing/shutter). i made it to Malone's popped the hood, with the motor running and saw a compression leak in three for the four injectors. i saw this because there was anti seize on the injector body and it was bubbling for lack of a better word. so i drove back to the shop. they tried to seat the nozzles again by removing the retaining fork and placing a flat head screw driver on the lip of the injector body and tapping it down. then i went for another test drive, still the injectors were not seated fully. i think it was just the number one injector that wasn't seated. again they tapped down the injector to try and seat it. went for another short drive...same issue. one more attempt at tapping the injector down and it seemed to seat. i did a quick drive and the car seemed find. not as much power as i expected but there was no shuttering. there was a loping for lack of a better word. as in if i held the rpms at 2000 in third gear the car was loping. i assumed it was over fuelling.

then i drove to Malone's office. there Owain installed the tune while we both chatted. it didn't take long. he cleared the egr code and he didn't mention any other issues that he saw while he was installing the tune. then we were going to log some data after the tune was installed. so we went for a drive. we didn't get very far because the car had a horrible shutter. and as Owain said the IQ was jumping around all over the place. the idle was inconsistent and when the motor was put under load it shuttered.

i drove back to the shop that installed my injectors. they tried to help me by adjusting the IQ via ross-tech. the shutter got a little better as they lowered the IQ. that made some attempts to tweak the IQ then a short drive, adjust, drive, adjust, drive and so on. i got to the point were it was about 4 pm and a had to drive back to west vancouver because i had to work a night shift. so i did.

on the freeway the car was ok at higher rpm (+2800). and it is manageable when the motor isn't under load, cruising in fifth gear at 110km/hr for example. driving around the city there car i horrible. everything from 0-2800 there is a bad shutter.

in conclusion. Owain has offered to remove the tune. i called the shop that did my injectors to see if they still had the originals. he said he wasn't sure and he'd call me back. he hasn't called back or returned my calls. i'll assume he doesn't want to deal with the car and thats fine. i'll also assume he doesn't have my original nozzles. at this point in time i have an un-drivable car and can't seem to find any direction in what i can do to remedy this problem. i've called a few vw shops nearer to my home and they don't have experience with modded vw's or have ross-tech to adjust the IQ. i'm completely slammed with work and don't have time to try and fix this myself. i will attempt to bring it to a shop early next week.

like i said earlier i'm not slagging anyone i'm just trying to get my car running sensibly so i can drive it to and from work.
THANK YOU for taking the time to lay it all out. It's never a personal thing, it's about trying to resolve an issue- OK?

As has been noted, anti-seize on the injectors is a questionable process. That the injectors weren't sealing correctly also brings up the question as to whether they even used new sealing washers (do shops even bother to anneal them?). I wouldn't be comfortable with any of the work that was done here if they had this kind of batting average with just getting the injectors to seal/seat. Also, were the fuel return lines replaced?

When you say the shop doesn't have your "original nozzles" does that mean just the nozzles or the injectors+nozzles? Kind of matters because it's unsure whether different injector bodies have been introduced into this equation. NOTE: you should always get your original bits back, bits such as nozzles (though not sure what one is going to do with stock ones- I've got several clinking around), injector bodies are a different story (consider them core parts- worth a good $200 or so).

Not sure who you are dealing with vis a vis the injectors. If you PM me I can direct you to a couple competent places up there.

If there are no codes for IP or the #3 injector then there could be, as noted, some blockage happening. Pretty sure that this kind of stuff would show up in VCDS (or comparable diag equipment) under injector deviation data.

So, just to make sure what things are like at this point, are you running with the (new) tune? I got spun all over the place on this, confused as to whether Owain left the tune in or not. At any rate, it WILL NOT be the tune that's responsible with problems here: usually if there's any issue it won't be problematic like this- it'll be more on the higher boost-side of things- hopefully Owain can correct me if I'm talking out my $##).
UhOh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2017, 13:01   #24
munly
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Default

Uhoh...to answer your questions. The shop did use new sealing washers. And new fuel return lines were placed (those a the soft black lines running from injector to injector?)

As far as I know the shop doesn't have the original nozzles. The injector bodies are the ones that were already on the car. THE NEW NOZZLES WERE MOUNTED TO MY OLD INJECTOR BODIES.

There are no codes right now. When I went back to the shop after the tune there was a code for "misfire" that developed when they were playing with the IQ (thats all i was told). They cleared the code it hasn't returned.

I am running a stage 3 tune. Owain left it on there because I was going back to the shop to get them to fix the nozzle issues. Like I said in an earlier post, I didn't have time to stay there any longer because I had a night shift at work.

If the injectors were removed and replaced could this solve my problem?
munly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2017, 17:15   #25
UhOh
Veteran Member
 
UhOh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: PNW
Default

munly, just looking to verify the facts/events. At this point nothing should be changed until further data is collected.

That you have the same injector bodies is good because we know that they didn't exhibit issues before. That only leaves the change as being the nozzles (and, as noted, return lines).

Seeing as there's no codes (regular occurrence) I'd suspect that it's the injectors and not the IP: this is good. I'd advocate that one needs to take a look at see what the injector balance/deviation looks like. I suspect that's going to show your smoking gun.

Question: are you smelling any raw fuel? (make sure we don't have leaking return lines- I had one case where I had a loose injector and the car still ran fine (noisy, something that I was thinking was a worsening of a known exhaust leak).

If Owain is still around perhaps he can comment on this.
UhOh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2017, 11:44   #26
munly
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Default

just a quick question. if some debris was to fall into the hole for the injectors during a nozzle swap is it the end of the world for my car. i'm hoping my issue is a blockage of some sort or the injectors are not seating completely. i'm going to remove and replace the injectors and hope for the best. if anyone has any tips it would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
munly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2017, 12:41   #27
vanbcguy
Veteran Member
 
vanbcguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC
Default

Depends what the debris is and where it ends up. Something abrasive getting jammed in a ring will do damage, anything that burns will probably cease to be...

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
__________________
My build thread: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32967.0
vanbcguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2017, 13:34   #28
Nevada_TDI
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Reno, sort of...
Default

It could be the quantity adjuster in your pump or it could be the #3 injector acting up. By changing the nozzle size your IQ will drastically drop on it's own, and occasionally the QA will sometimes get stuck in a limited range of movement over time causing the IQ to jump around at idle when the nozzles are changed. I have recently gone through the IQ jumping around myself, but my problem did not end until I replaced my IP. It was up for discussion as to whether or not I had water in my fuel that caused the problem; when was the last time you drained your fuel filter and checked for water?
__________________
_______________
2001 Jetta GL TDI, Tinted, Ventectomy, Catectomy, EGR-ectomy, TDTuning, HIFLO .216's, Stealth 17/56 Garrett, VCDS Hex+CAN, South Bend Daily Driver 2 Clutch, DG Short Shifter, Frostheater, Previous Diesel: 1983 Rabbit Diesel
Nevada_TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2017, 13:50   #29
UhOh
Veteran Member
 
UhOh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by munly View Post
just a quick question. if some debris was to fall into the hole for the injectors during a nozzle swap is it the end of the world for my car. i'm hoping my issue is a blockage of some sort or the injectors are not seating completely. i'm going to remove and replace the injectors and hope for the best. if anyone has any tips it would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
Stuff getting into the injector holes won't affect the injectors. I don't know why you're asking about this possibility, but, generally, usually the worst that can happen is that some carbon is knocked off and into the cylinder; usually not any significant amount of carbon "chunk" here. Advised practice is to clean out from around the injectors before pulling; then after pulled to clean the injector bores.

"Leaking" that you'd be able to check for would be, effectively, compression leaks. Spray some soapy water around the base of the injectors and if any of them are blowing bubbles then you've got an injector that isn't seating well. I cannot, however, see a leaking injector being responsible for the IP's IQ jumping around as much as has been reported. Leaky injector -seal- in my car was significant, LOTS of black soot plastered everywhere, yet, the car ran well (no detection of decreased performance at all), well enough to log 50+mpg.

If you're thinking leaking injector bodies/nozzles, then that's another story, one that only a professional can really check. HOWEVER, it's possible given a bad enough injector that one could see tell-tale wetness/blackness on an injector nozzle: I have little experience in a situation like this, but I'm sure others have.

If it is suspected that ONE injector is wonky then loosening up the fuel line to the injector (one can do this one at a time if unsure which one) to see how much difference that makes. With an already rough cylinder it'll make less difference. One needs to place a rag around the area to keep from getting fuel all over.

Lastly, I'm still not familiar with those nozzles. But, 0.216 seems like a pretty big jump; without any hardware upgrades (turbo) you'd need to crank back on the IQ quite a bit: IQ numbers are kind of backwards, so in absolute numerical terms one actually increases the number to reduce fueling. It's kind of silly to be going bigger only to then restrict.

No real chance of resolving this without some data. Either shotgun parts or shell out for someone to deal with it: if you're not happy with the folks you're dealing with then go elsewhere; BUT, keep in mind the possibility that you may end up hearing what you've already heard- without data, which will take someone's time to gather, you're kind of stuck trying to get out of this cheaply.
UhOh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2017, 17:59   #30
munly
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Default

another question...since having this work done my motor has developed a noticeable "tink, tink, tink, tink..." sound. it sounds like its coming from under the valve cover. any ideas. thanks.
munly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Did it...Malone Stage 2 tune Rayzer VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) 84 Today 05:27
Malone tune stage 2 or 3 Nathaniel.Troy TDI Power Enhancements 42 July 9th, 2015 11:39
Malone stage 2 tune Barker1632 TDI Power Enhancements 10 July 6th, 2015 11:27
Malone tune stage 3 or 4 ? acer2525 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 9 January 4th, 2013 20:35
.216 or .232 with malone stage 3? TOPH R TDI Power Enhancements 18 February 25th, 2012 11:18


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18222 seconds with 11 queries
[Output: 137.94 Kb. compressed to 116.97 Kb. by saving 20.97 Kb. (15.20%)]