rocketeer928
Veteran Member
Um, you woulda thunk... Stupidly, I got rid of the old dogbone rather quickly never thinking it would be the source of my problem.
Engine Vibration after Timing Belt Change & Colt Stage 2 Camshaft Installation
- Thread starter rocketeer928
- Start date
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
Per 3L3M3NT's suggestion, I purchased and installed the Fluidampr viscous torsional dampers (harmonic balancer filled with silicone). Though it might be good for the longevity of my modified engine, it didn't really help with the vibration within the cabin that I've been experiencing since June.
This picture shows the TDC mark.
Installed; I used blue thread locker on the bolts.
This picture shows the TDC mark.
Installed; I used blue thread locker on the bolts.
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Rayovac
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2015
- Location
- Edmonton, AB, Canada
- TDI
- 2003 Golf, 2003 Jetta Wagon, 2005 Passat Wagon
Well, that's disappointing to hear that the Fluidampr didn't make an appreciable difference in cutting the vibration, I was seriously considering the cost of one.
I don't want to disappoint, but following up on your suspicion, I swapped out my brand new dog bone mount with a used one to see if some of the vibration would go away and it made no difference at all.
I don't want to disappoint, but following up on your suspicion, I swapped out my brand new dog bone mount with a used one to see if some of the vibration would go away and it made no difference at all.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
That's a bummer. If my vibration isn't caused by the new, OEM dogbone, then I have no idea why there would be a change in vibration between before June when I did the timing belt and camshaft swap and the last few months. The only other thing that I can think of is a faulty component from the timing belt kit I used.
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Chris,
If you look at the method of posting pictures, you can resize the pics to 'medium'. Large pics like these are more problem than benefit.
I do wish I had seen the engine, but I was in no condition to attend Kirk's GTG.
I told you before that I thought changing out the cam was a waste of time and that has proven to be true. I knew the injectors were not in good shape, as they could not pop cleanly, even at the first stage for some injectors. But even getting the injectors corrected did not give me the feeling this would all go away. And it did not.
The FluidDampner, in my opinion, should be removed. That is real high-end performance equipment and I do not think your engine is capable of accessing this harmonic balancer's benefit.
And one thing I really hate... Loctite where it is not needed. Keep the cap on that bottle. Use it for your ATV's and motorcycles, not your road-driven VW's. All you do is create a problem for the next time the harmonic balancer comes off.
I absolutely DO NOT think it's a timing belt issue.
When I think of the issues that can make an engine vibrate, there are two that come to mind. The passenger-side engine mount is subject to failure when the connection for the engine mount that is vulcanized into the body mount fails, that will allow the engine to slide sideways in the rubber isolation bushing. Vibrations of many types and locations can be very difficult to pin down, as the noise of the engine itself covers the sound when in the engine bay.
Also, I noticed on another thread your treatment of the PanzerPlate, with aluminum foil tape and some insulating blanket attached. I don't know what value that stuff adds, but the fact you have a PanzerPlate alone can be the source of vibrations and harmonics,if the plate is not properly attached or the subframe is incorrectly spaced from the PanzerPlate, you can get all sorts of difficult to pin-down vibrations.
As this appears to have happened after a timing belt interval and you can't let it go, I'd backtrack through the engine mount to see if that doesn't resolve the matter. I have seen an engine that wasn't suspended equally from both side engine mounts cause vibration issues. Once the verticle engine mount bolts were loosened and the engine centered on the side mounts and retightened, the problem went away.
If you look at the method of posting pictures, you can resize the pics to 'medium'. Large pics like these are more problem than benefit.
I do wish I had seen the engine, but I was in no condition to attend Kirk's GTG.
I told you before that I thought changing out the cam was a waste of time and that has proven to be true. I knew the injectors were not in good shape, as they could not pop cleanly, even at the first stage for some injectors. But even getting the injectors corrected did not give me the feeling this would all go away. And it did not.
The FluidDampner, in my opinion, should be removed. That is real high-end performance equipment and I do not think your engine is capable of accessing this harmonic balancer's benefit.
And one thing I really hate... Loctite where it is not needed. Keep the cap on that bottle. Use it for your ATV's and motorcycles, not your road-driven VW's. All you do is create a problem for the next time the harmonic balancer comes off.
I absolutely DO NOT think it's a timing belt issue.
When I think of the issues that can make an engine vibrate, there are two that come to mind. The passenger-side engine mount is subject to failure when the connection for the engine mount that is vulcanized into the body mount fails, that will allow the engine to slide sideways in the rubber isolation bushing. Vibrations of many types and locations can be very difficult to pin down, as the noise of the engine itself covers the sound when in the engine bay.
Also, I noticed on another thread your treatment of the PanzerPlate, with aluminum foil tape and some insulating blanket attached. I don't know what value that stuff adds, but the fact you have a PanzerPlate alone can be the source of vibrations and harmonics,if the plate is not properly attached or the subframe is incorrectly spaced from the PanzerPlate, you can get all sorts of difficult to pin-down vibrations.
As this appears to have happened after a timing belt interval and you can't let it go, I'd backtrack through the engine mount to see if that doesn't resolve the matter. I have seen an engine that wasn't suspended equally from both side engine mounts cause vibration issues. Once the verticle engine mount bolts were loosened and the engine centered on the side mounts and retightened, the problem went away.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
Thanks for the response, Frank. I too am sorry that we missed each other at Kirk's Michigan GTG. Maybe next year. I take it you're now feeling better.
Tonight before I saw your response, I removed the Panzer skid plate and dogbone mount, and then drove the car for a short while to see/hear what happens. The vibration was MUCH, MUCH WORSE. I didn't go far, turned around, reinstalled both the dogbone and skid plate, and the annoying vibration was back to what it was before.
Yup, I've wasted a lot of money and time on this vibration issue. And yup, I'm having a hard time letting this vibration issue go. It did not exist to this extent before the timing belt and camshaft swaps. I'm like a terrier according to my wife; I have a hard time of letting things that bother me go.
So, are you suggesting that I purchase a new OEM passenger side mount and installing it with the hope that that is causing my vibration issue?
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UhOh
Top Post Dawg
Well, I'd felt that it wasn't the injectors either.
I doubt that a Panzer plate could create the intensity of vibrations that he's feeling. I've got them on three cars and, while they most certainly can make some noise, that's pretty much all they can do- make a bit of noise; there's not all that much mass to actually create any substantial vibrations (not enough to transmit through heavier frame materials).
Mounts, engine (something's gone out of balance) axles or diff/transmission.
I doubt that a Panzer plate could create the intensity of vibrations that he's feeling. I've got them on three cars and, while they most certainly can make some noise, that's pretty much all they can do- make a bit of noise; there's not all that much mass to actually create any substantial vibrations (not enough to transmit through heavier frame materials).
Mounts, engine (something's gone out of balance) axles or diff/transmission.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
Frank proved that I needed new injectors anyway, as the PP764s I had were junk.
It's not the axles - Vibration is always at idle, as well as all RPMs.
It's not the Panzer plate - Through this whole vibration episode, there have been plenty of times I've driven the car on test runs without the skid plate attached, including tonight when I tried driving without the dogbone.
It's not the axles - Vibration is always at idle, as well as all RPMs.
It's not the Panzer plate - Through this whole vibration episode, there have been plenty of times I've driven the car on test runs without the skid plate attached, including tonight when I tried driving without the dogbone.
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PB_NB
Veteran Member
Several years ago, I put VF engine mounts and dogbone mount in the Beetle. Did this during one of my timing belt changes. These are for a VR6 and fit the TDI as well. They are red poly, not rubber. I was told that they will soften up over time, but it's been over 5 years now.
I have gotten used to the vibration. I really only notice the vibration at idle. When I had my Malone tune installed, I got the dynamic idle program and this helped by raising the idle when the engine is cold. This helped reduce the vibration a bit. I don't have any vibration at speed with these mounts.
I do have a skid plate as well. Never noticed any vibration due to that plate. Even after last winter when I tagged a boulder and pushed the skid plate up making contact with the oil pan. Took a sledge to beat the plate so it doesn't touch the oil pan anymore.
I hope you find your problem.
I have gotten used to the vibration. I really only notice the vibration at idle. When I had my Malone tune installed, I got the dynamic idle program and this helped by raising the idle when the engine is cold. This helped reduce the vibration a bit. I don't have any vibration at speed with these mounts.
I do have a skid plate as well. Never noticed any vibration due to that plate. Even after last winter when I tagged a boulder and pushed the skid plate up making contact with the oil pan. Took a sledge to beat the plate so it doesn't touch the oil pan anymore.
I hope you find your problem.
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Chris,
I am better, but tomorrow is 5 weeks. I was told it is more like 8 weeks to heal. We'll see... I am up and going.
Harmonics and vibration is nothing new for VW. If anybody ever dug into the dash of a ALH Jetta; in the middle of the area under the windshield cowling, there is a funky weight, specifically designed to suppress a harmonic dash buzz. It's a factory 'bandaid' to cure a buzz or vibration.
We have had panzer plates make noises... buzzing, popping, vibrations, but usually it is like PB_NB says; a bent plate contacting oil pan or subframe, loose bolts, things not spaced right. We usually cut the left rear bolt hole of the Panzer Plate a bit bigger to keep it from causing a vibration. Compared to the mounting points on the subframe, the Panzer is a bit off.
I don't think removing the dog bone, if that is what you did is any test, proves anything. You mean you REPLACED IT with another dog bone or just simply REMOVED IT? If just removed, it will only make matters worse.
If you have installed a new engine mount, I guess the first thing I'd ask is where the mount came from and if it was installed at the same time as the timing belt. We don't know about all motor mounts and there are many CRAP ones. The isolation rubber in the mount may be exactly what is causing the issue, but I would be hesitant to point the finger at that part as my first guess. Check the easy stuff first.
Specifically, we did this recently. When reinstalling an engine, the motor mounts got into a twist. We only recognized the problem by the buzz and hum that the engine produced. We lifted the engine, loosened the motor vertical mount bolts and the motor mounts shifted. They moved to a more natural position. When retightened, the buzz went away.
So, I do not necessarily think the passenger engine mount should be replaced, but I do think it is suspect for creating an engine buzz.
Another question of engine vibration comes from the alternator pulley, the tensioner and it's idler roller. Quick check... remove the accessory belt. All you need to do is remove it from the harmonic balancer. Check to see if Alternator clutching hub is working correctly, the shock and bearings are good on the tensioner and the idler roller spins smoothly.
The last part of the question is what is the engine now doing? It is running with more power, with a different cam, which will make low idle perhaps rough. You should have seen how the ol' Chevy 327 with a full race cam idled... shake your eyeballs out...but you didn't notice any problem when you dropped the hammer.
I am better, but tomorrow is 5 weeks. I was told it is more like 8 weeks to heal. We'll see... I am up and going.
Harmonics and vibration is nothing new for VW. If anybody ever dug into the dash of a ALH Jetta; in the middle of the area under the windshield cowling, there is a funky weight, specifically designed to suppress a harmonic dash buzz. It's a factory 'bandaid' to cure a buzz or vibration.
We have had panzer plates make noises... buzzing, popping, vibrations, but usually it is like PB_NB says; a bent plate contacting oil pan or subframe, loose bolts, things not spaced right. We usually cut the left rear bolt hole of the Panzer Plate a bit bigger to keep it from causing a vibration. Compared to the mounting points on the subframe, the Panzer is a bit off.
I don't think removing the dog bone, if that is what you did is any test, proves anything. You mean you REPLACED IT with another dog bone or just simply REMOVED IT? If just removed, it will only make matters worse.
If you have installed a new engine mount, I guess the first thing I'd ask is where the mount came from and if it was installed at the same time as the timing belt. We don't know about all motor mounts and there are many CRAP ones. The isolation rubber in the mount may be exactly what is causing the issue, but I would be hesitant to point the finger at that part as my first guess. Check the easy stuff first.
Specifically, we did this recently. When reinstalling an engine, the motor mounts got into a twist. We only recognized the problem by the buzz and hum that the engine produced. We lifted the engine, loosened the motor vertical mount bolts and the motor mounts shifted. They moved to a more natural position. When retightened, the buzz went away.
So, I do not necessarily think the passenger engine mount should be replaced, but I do think it is suspect for creating an engine buzz.
Another question of engine vibration comes from the alternator pulley, the tensioner and it's idler roller. Quick check... remove the accessory belt. All you need to do is remove it from the harmonic balancer. Check to see if Alternator clutching hub is working correctly, the shock and bearings are good on the tensioner and the idler roller spins smoothly.
The last part of the question is what is the engine now doing? It is running with more power, with a different cam, which will make low idle perhaps rough. You should have seen how the ol' Chevy 327 with a full race cam idled... shake your eyeballs out...but you didn't notice any problem when you dropped the hammer.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
The vibration that I'm experiencing happens whether or not I have the Panzer Plate installed, at idle (so not axles), and at all RPMs (odd... I keep writing that multiple times. 
)
I only use parts from vendors on my TDI. I do NOT buy cheap parts off of fleaBay or other such sites.
After the issue started, I bought a second dogbone from ID Parts, installed it, but had the same vibration issue. So, two brand new, quality dogbones and the same annoying vibration. Yes, I took it off yesterday to see what would happen, and yes it was worse. The dogbone and Panzer Plate are both reinstalled as of right now. Back to the "normal" annoying vibration.
At one point I removed the serpentine belt completely and drove around. The vibration was still there in its same buzziness. So that seems to indicate that the issue is not the alternator pulley, the tensioner, idler roller, etc.
What's the engine doing now? Well, there seems to be a little bit more power with the Colt camshaft, Firad 502 nozzles, and the tweaked RC5-ASV-Euro tune from Jeff. Not 100% certain, as I haven't had it on a dyno. However, the same vibration was there when I had those old Bosio PP764 nozzles Franko6 had me replace because they were unbalanced junk, when I experimented by recently installing a brand new OEM ALH camshaft/lifters (wasted $$$), and when I had my previous Günther tuned ECU on the car. So it seems to me that the extra power I may have gained isn't the culprit.
Again, this vibration happens at ALL RPMs, and not just at idle or low RPMs. The vibration doesn't shake my eyeballs out, but it is annoying and was not there anywhere near to this extent before I performed the timing belt change or camshaft swap. I'm not expecting a completely smooth engine with the modifications I've done to my TDI, but I would like to at least get it back to what the driving experience was before June 2017.
I guess the next thing to try is to do as Franko6 suggests and loosen up the engine mount and bracket bolts to see if I too experienced a twist that's causing my vibration issue. Should I also loosen and then re-tighten the three bolts mount bracket on the side of the engine? Can re-use the same stretch bolts or do I need to get new ones first?
Exasperated... I've wasted a lot of time and money chasing this annoying problem. I do greatly appreciate everyone's input and suggestions.
)I only use parts from vendors on my TDI. I do NOT buy cheap parts off of fleaBay or other such sites.
After the issue started, I bought a second dogbone from ID Parts, installed it, but had the same vibration issue. So, two brand new, quality dogbones and the same annoying vibration. Yes, I took it off yesterday to see what would happen, and yes it was worse. The dogbone and Panzer Plate are both reinstalled as of right now. Back to the "normal" annoying vibration.
At one point I removed the serpentine belt completely and drove around. The vibration was still there in its same buzziness. So that seems to indicate that the issue is not the alternator pulley, the tensioner, idler roller, etc.
What's the engine doing now? Well, there seems to be a little bit more power with the Colt camshaft, Firad 502 nozzles, and the tweaked RC5-ASV-Euro tune from Jeff. Not 100% certain, as I haven't had it on a dyno. However, the same vibration was there when I had those old Bosio PP764 nozzles Franko6 had me replace because they were unbalanced junk, when I experimented by recently installing a brand new OEM ALH camshaft/lifters (wasted $$$), and when I had my previous Günther tuned ECU on the car. So it seems to me that the extra power I may have gained isn't the culprit.
Again, this vibration happens at ALL RPMs, and not just at idle or low RPMs. The vibration doesn't shake my eyeballs out, but it is annoying and was not there anywhere near to this extent before I performed the timing belt change or camshaft swap. I'm not expecting a completely smooth engine with the modifications I've done to my TDI, but I would like to at least get it back to what the driving experience was before June 2017.
I guess the next thing to try is to do as Franko6 suggests and loosen up the engine mount and bracket bolts to see if I too experienced a twist that's causing my vibration issue. Should I also loosen and then re-tighten the three bolts mount bracket on the side of the engine? Can re-use the same stretch bolts or do I need to get new ones first?
Exasperated... I've wasted a lot of time and money chasing this annoying problem. I do greatly appreciate everyone's input and suggestions.
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UhOh
Top Post Dawg
Yes, I'm aware that he "proved" your injectors needed help (I'd wager that the majority of injectors out there could use some help). My POINT was that the injector deviation showed that it was NOT your injectors that were responsible for your vibration issue: the ECU wasn't commanding any significant fueling changes between cylinders AT IDLE (which you also experience vibrations). Great that the injectors are better, but that did nothing to resolve your problem (which this thread was about). The actual gurus, and I DO respect them, can be wrong about things (they're human).
And, yes, my post went out just after yours in which you noted that removing the Panzer plate had no affect. My comments/reasoning for why I believed the Panzer has no real affect should stand (and, just like my comments about the injectors, has been proven to be correct). I'm certainly no VW/TDI guru, but I'm also no slouch at troubleshooting (having a pretty extensive background in it).
Growler
Got Soot Vendor
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Location
- Millersport, Ohio
- TDI
- Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
Rocketeer,
Take a photo of your passenger motor mount vertical bolts as they sit right now and post it here.
What Frank is getting at is perhaps these bolts are holding the top half of the motor mount in an odd angle and are loading the rubber inside the mount housing on the fender/framerail in a not natural position.
IIRC the wide parts of the 2 18mm headed vertical bolts need to line up with the engine side edge of the top half of the motor mount.
there is a photo out there somewhere (perhaps in the ALH timing belt procedure PDF that has been floating around here forever..) I know its a capture from a Bentley manual so if you have one, you can look it up as well.
basically if one of the bolts is loading the bracket at an angle this could be your issue.
it is up to you if you want to reuse the bolts, just be sure you SUPPORT the motor before and while you loosen the motor mount vertical bolts. you DO NOT want to pull the weight of the motor up to the motor mount and tighten the bolts with all of that pressure/weight on those threads.. they will strip easily.
post the photo before you tear into it so you dont waste more time on this rabbit hole.
Take a photo of your passenger motor mount vertical bolts as they sit right now and post it here.
What Frank is getting at is perhaps these bolts are holding the top half of the motor mount in an odd angle and are loading the rubber inside the mount housing on the fender/framerail in a not natural position.
IIRC the wide parts of the 2 18mm headed vertical bolts need to line up with the engine side edge of the top half of the motor mount.
there is a photo out there somewhere (perhaps in the ALH timing belt procedure PDF that has been floating around here forever..) I know its a capture from a Bentley manual so if you have one, you can look it up as well.
basically if one of the bolts is loading the bracket at an angle this could be your issue.
it is up to you if you want to reuse the bolts, just be sure you SUPPORT the motor before and while you loosen the motor mount vertical bolts. you DO NOT want to pull the weight of the motor up to the motor mount and tighten the bolts with all of that pressure/weight on those threads.. they will strip easily.
post the photo before you tear into it so you dont waste more time on this rabbit hole.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
I'm not sure if it will help, but here are the engine mount photo as it stands now:
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UhOh
Top Post Dawg
Maybe putting a stethoscope to the mount might give another perspective? And maybe doing this on the transmission mount side as well for comparison? The source of the vibration cannot be equal everywhere. At this point this seems like the only way to narrow this down.
Growler
Got Soot Vendor
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Location
- Millersport, Ohio
- TDI
- Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
In this photo it shows what I thought.I'm not sure if it will help, but...
The wide flange on the head of the bolt needs to line up with the vertical side of the mount under it.. If you look, you can see that it is crooked.
The left bolt is worse than the right one, but both look to be a touch off where they should be.
The same goes for the tranny side, but do this one first and see if it helps.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
I not sure that I understand what you're referring to. Let's see if I can interpret.
That approximately 1/8-inch gap seen in the photo between the side engine mount and the mount being held by the two bolts ought not to be there, but rather should be flush. If I'm correct in interpreting what you wrote, then I only need to loosen the two bolts, somehow muscle the engine to line up correctly, and re-torque? Of course, properly supporting the engine.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
That approximately 1/8-inch gap seen in the photo between the side engine mount and the mount being held by the two bolts ought not to be there, but rather should be flush. If I'm correct in interpreting what you wrote, then I only need to loosen the two bolts, somehow muscle the engine to line up correctly, and re-torque? Of course, properly supporting the engine.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
BobnOH
not-a-mechanic
He's saying it's not lined up. Your assessment is correct.
Never having done this (Growlers done more than a few) I'm wondering if that slot in the middle can aid in aligning.
Never having done this (Growlers done more than a few) I'm wondering if that slot in the middle can aid in aligning.
Growler
Got Soot Vendor
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Location
- Millersport, Ohio
- TDI
- Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
here is a modified image.
You want the edge of the bolt heads to line up with the edge where the red line is.
you can see that the mount is crooked based on the lengths of the little tick marks.
and yes, support the engine, loosen the two bolts, adjust and snug one but not too tight, then adjust the other, then tighten/torque them both to 74 ft-lb once they are both lined up against the red edge line.
You want the edge of the bolt heads to line up with the edge where the red line is.
you can see that the mount is crooked based on the lengths of the little tick marks.
and yes, support the engine, loosen the two bolts, adjust and snug one but not too tight, then adjust the other, then tighten/torque them both to 74 ft-lb once they are both lined up against the red edge line.
BobnOH
not-a-mechanic
Not what I was thinking at all, was looking at the indent below.
Like I said, never done it.
Isn't the edge of the bolt aligning parallel a function of the thickness of the piece?
Like I said, never done it.
Isn't the edge of the bolt aligning parallel a function of the thickness of the piece?
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
Ah, that's clearer Growler. I guess you all know what I'll be doing tomorrow morning.
I sure hope it finally works. Otherwise, I'll probably get new mounts. I'm guessing that the tranny mount needs to be lined up the same, eh?
I sure hope it finally works. Otherwise, I'll probably get new mounts. I'm guessing that the tranny mount needs to be lined up the same, eh?
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Growler
Got Soot Vendor
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Location
- Millersport, Ohio
- TDI
- Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
Yes, tranny side should be the same.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
It’s been an extremely frustrating day. Spitting bullets...
I think I now know the source of the vibration that I’ve dealt with for over 5 months, and now I have a big problem. Side engine mount bracket.
When I went to adjust the engine mount as Growler (Aaron) suggested the front-most, large bolt that gets torqued to 74 ft.lb. came out rather easily, and then stripped the threads in the side engine bracket when reassembling. I scrambled around the area, found a M12 × 1.50mm Heli-Coil set and proceeded to fix both holes. I failed miserably, couldn’t successfully thread the holes after drilling them out, and now must replace the side engine mount bracket.
What’s the easiest way to get the damaged bracket out and the new bracket in? Do I need to remove the timing belt, its tensioner, and rollers to get the bracket out and new one in? The new bracket and new bolts are ordered via ID Parts.
I’m so frustrated… I have a hate/love relationship with vehicles and computers. I’m just thankful that the mounts didn’t fail to the point where my engine fell to my Panzer Plate.
I think I now know the source of the vibration that I’ve dealt with for over 5 months, and now I have a big problem. Side engine mount bracket.
When I went to adjust the engine mount as Growler (Aaron) suggested the front-most, large bolt that gets torqued to 74 ft.lb. came out rather easily, and then stripped the threads in the side engine bracket when reassembling. I scrambled around the area, found a M12 × 1.50mm Heli-Coil set and proceeded to fix both holes. I failed miserably, couldn’t successfully thread the holes after drilling them out, and now must replace the side engine mount bracket.
What’s the easiest way to get the damaged bracket out and the new bracket in? Do I need to remove the timing belt, its tensioner, and rollers to get the bracket out and new one in? The new bracket and new bolts are ordered via ID Parts.
I’m so frustrated… I have a hate/love relationship with vehicles and computers. I’m just thankful that the mounts didn’t fail to the point where my engine fell to my Panzer Plate.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
I got the side engine bracket out through the underneath of the car. I had to take apart a lot of components just to do it while lowering the engine. I sure hope when the new bracket arrives that I'll be able to get it in without a problem, and most of all that the threads in the engine for that bracket don't strip.
I hate aluminum!!!
I hate aluminum!!!
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
OK, Growler. Here's my transmission mount. I'm assuming that this one is way off in terms of where it's supposed to lie and should be similar to the engine mount.
Right?
After what I've gone through today with the threads stripping on the engine mount bracket, I'm very reluctant to alter the tranny mount. This mount has been removed and reinstalled on its bracket at least four times. However, I just read on ID Parts that the transmission bracket will survive one clutch swap, but not two (or three!). Hmm...
Right?
After what I've gone through today with the threads stripping on the engine mount bracket, I'm very reluctant to alter the tranny mount. This mount has been removed and reinstalled on its bracket at least four times. However, I just read on ID Parts that the transmission bracket will survive one clutch swap, but not two (or three!). Hmm...
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Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Ok, well, Aaron pointed it out in pictures. I recommended the check. When the engine is properly supported, we have seen where both sides need to be adjusted to make the engine hang correctly.
The engine mount bolts: although they are NOT really a torque-to-yield bolt, they are treated that way by VW with a pre-load and final torque. We have given up that practice because we have seen it usually leads to stripped out engine and transmission mounts. Instead we use a straight torque.
On the largest 12 mm bolts, we torque to 60-65 lbs. The 10mm bolts get 45 ft lbs. The smaller ones are not really all that consequential... 35 ft lbs. We have done that for years. Never lost an engine mount, never broke a block ear. Never dropped an engine out of the engine bay.
BTW: The existing engine mount could have been saved, but few people understand how to heliCoil the right side mount. In order to do so successfully, a double 18mm length coil should be used. They are stacked. This is an acceptable way that HeliCoil uses inserts.
I have an old thread that details the method for repairing engine mounts, in place. Actually, the replacement mounts have become relatively inexpensive and the upgraded engine mounts have inserts built into them. It's not such a bad deal to replace, but if you are able to fix, it's a time-saver.
The engine mount bolts: although they are NOT really a torque-to-yield bolt, they are treated that way by VW with a pre-load and final torque. We have given up that practice because we have seen it usually leads to stripped out engine and transmission mounts. Instead we use a straight torque.
On the largest 12 mm bolts, we torque to 60-65 lbs. The 10mm bolts get 45 ft lbs. The smaller ones are not really all that consequential... 35 ft lbs. We have done that for years. Never lost an engine mount, never broke a block ear. Never dropped an engine out of the engine bay.
BTW: The existing engine mount could have been saved, but few people understand how to heliCoil the right side mount. In order to do so successfully, a double 18mm length coil should be used. They are stacked. This is an acceptable way that HeliCoil uses inserts.
I have an old thread that details the method for repairing engine mounts, in place. Actually, the replacement mounts have become relatively inexpensive and the upgraded engine mounts have inserts built into them. It's not such a bad deal to replace, but if you are able to fix, it's a time-saver.
UhOh
Top Post Dawg
Engine mount bolts are now spec'd as a final torque value (large ones 74 ft-lbs?).
I used Time-Serts to repair an engine mount in my car. Have lots of confidence in them: they're a bit trickier than heli-coils though.
I used Time-Serts to repair an engine mount in my car. Have lots of confidence in them: they're a bit trickier than heli-coils though.
Growler
Got Soot Vendor
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Location
- Millersport, Ohio
- TDI
- Schmutz, 2015 Golf Sportwagen DSG & Schnurren, 2001 Golf GL 2 door 5M
Here is my inexperience, I've only done a few clutches and cannot recall off the top of my head. Which side of the transmission mount bracket should these bolts line up to. I am thinking it's the right side on this picture, but am not 100%sure.
rocketeer928
Veteran Member
The end of November I ordered and installed all new, OEM (not cheap-ola stuff) engine and transmission brackets and mounts, including new bolts. Unfortunately, my annoying vibration still existed, so the root cause isn’t likely the mounts. I suspect that the new mounts are a bit stiffer, so whatever is causing the vibration was enhanced at all RPMs. It was more pronounced at idle too. This vibration is present whether or not I have my Panzer Plate installed, so it’s not that.
To make matters worse, I was forced to buy a new battery the day I got everything back together. The one I had was 7 years old, was dead when I put it back in the car, and would not take an overnight and all next day trickle charge.
I was re-reading what Franko6 wrote on Nov 15 and Nov 19. He wrote, “I have seen an engine that wasn't suspended equally from both side engine mounts cause vibration issues. Once the vertical engine mount bolts were loosened and the engine centered on the side mounts and retightened, the problem went away.” When I installed the new brackets and mounts, I did the engine side first followed by the transmission side. Therefore, I didn’t have all four vertical bolts loose at the same time. I did ensure that there was no load on the mounts when I tightened to Franko6's recommended 65 ft‑lb for the 12‑mm bolts and 45 ft‑lb for the 10‑mm bolts, and I made sure everything was lined up as Aaron Growler had suggested.
Back in September, I removed the serpentine belt (and Panzer Plate) and carefully drove around for a few miles. The vibration was still there, so it's not likely the power steering pump, alternator, A/C compressor, serpentine belt tensioner, or roller.
I emailed Franko6 about my findings after the mount and bracket changes. Franko6 indicated that he was inclined to think since this problem happened during a timing belt installation that perhaps I would go through that timing belt procedure again. It wasn't something that I wanted to hear, and Franko6 indicated that if a timing belt change still doesn't cure the issue, then I think I should just try to get used to the vibration.
I broke down and purchased a complete timing belt kit from a different vendor than the one I purchased from in June (belt, rollers, water pump, tensioner, bolts) and installed it Friday and Saturday morning. Though the vibration might be a bit reduced, it's definitely still there. So, another waste of time and money. Ugh and Grr!!! The bright side is that if I still have this car at 230,000 miles (8 - 9 years!!), then I'll have a timing belt kit already available.
At one point a few months ago, Franko6 and I had a telephone discussion about the DC Stage III+ Clutch and Lightened 17.5 lb. Flywheel that I put on my car in 2009 (I can’t believe it was that long ago). Franko6 had indicated that he didn’t like lightened flywheels because that are often far out of balance via his testing. So now I’m wondering if that is the root problem of my vibration issue. If it is, then I find it odd that after all these years a problem would creep up now (or maybe and more likely I’m just noticing it more now with new mounts and dogbone), and coincidentally right after I performed a timing belt change and camshaft swap in June.
My dad is a Ford guy and former mechanic several decades ago. Today, I was explaining my issue to him and before I even told him about the clutch system he says to me, "Sounds like you've got a flywheel balance issue" and told me about his prior experiences with guys installing the wrong mass flywheels on their modified Fords.
Oh man!! Why I didn't talk to my dad about my issue months ago, I have no answer. Probably because he's not that enamored as I am about owning and driving a Volkswagen diesel. So, maybe in the spring I'll consider a new clutch kit with a full 21 lb. flywheel. I can't do it now with Christmas here and the cold weather. Besides, I really need a breather from continuously diagnosing and working on this car. I certainly won't look forward to dropping the transmission a fourth time. We'll see...
To make matters worse, I was forced to buy a new battery the day I got everything back together. The one I had was 7 years old, was dead when I put it back in the car, and would not take an overnight and all next day trickle charge.
I was re-reading what Franko6 wrote on Nov 15 and Nov 19. He wrote, “I have seen an engine that wasn't suspended equally from both side engine mounts cause vibration issues. Once the vertical engine mount bolts were loosened and the engine centered on the side mounts and retightened, the problem went away.” When I installed the new brackets and mounts, I did the engine side first followed by the transmission side. Therefore, I didn’t have all four vertical bolts loose at the same time. I did ensure that there was no load on the mounts when I tightened to Franko6's recommended 65 ft‑lb for the 12‑mm bolts and 45 ft‑lb for the 10‑mm bolts, and I made sure everything was lined up as Aaron Growler had suggested.
Back in September, I removed the serpentine belt (and Panzer Plate) and carefully drove around for a few miles. The vibration was still there, so it's not likely the power steering pump, alternator, A/C compressor, serpentine belt tensioner, or roller.
I emailed Franko6 about my findings after the mount and bracket changes. Franko6 indicated that he was inclined to think since this problem happened during a timing belt installation that perhaps I would go through that timing belt procedure again. It wasn't something that I wanted to hear, and Franko6 indicated that if a timing belt change still doesn't cure the issue, then I think I should just try to get used to the vibration.
I broke down and purchased a complete timing belt kit from a different vendor than the one I purchased from in June (belt, rollers, water pump, tensioner, bolts) and installed it Friday and Saturday morning. Though the vibration might be a bit reduced, it's definitely still there. So, another waste of time and money. Ugh and Grr!!! The bright side is that if I still have this car at 230,000 miles (8 - 9 years!!), then I'll have a timing belt kit already available.
At one point a few months ago, Franko6 and I had a telephone discussion about the DC Stage III+ Clutch and Lightened 17.5 lb. Flywheel that I put on my car in 2009 (I can’t believe it was that long ago). Franko6 had indicated that he didn’t like lightened flywheels because that are often far out of balance via his testing. So now I’m wondering if that is the root problem of my vibration issue. If it is, then I find it odd that after all these years a problem would creep up now (or maybe and more likely I’m just noticing it more now with new mounts and dogbone), and coincidentally right after I performed a timing belt change and camshaft swap in June.
My dad is a Ford guy and former mechanic several decades ago. Today, I was explaining my issue to him and before I even told him about the clutch system he says to me, "Sounds like you've got a flywheel balance issue" and told me about his prior experiences with guys installing the wrong mass flywheels on their modified Fords.
Oh man!! Why I didn't talk to my dad about my issue months ago, I have no answer. Probably because he's not that enamored as I am about owning and driving a Volkswagen diesel. So, maybe in the spring I'll consider a new clutch kit with a full 21 lb. flywheel. I can't do it now with Christmas here and the cold weather. Besides, I really need a breather from continuously diagnosing and working on this car. I certainly won't look forward to dropping the transmission a fourth time. We'll see...