BEW/PD Owners check your lift pump

BioChoppers · Jan 21, 2009

Today I learned something new to share with yee-all.

I had just finished a BEW engine swap, went to start it and the lift pump was bad.

In a pinch, we elected to temporarily take a LP out of one of Leonard's 04 inventory cars. Come to find out, that one was bad as well... But that one started up and seemed to run fine.

We went around and checked all of the PD cars lift pumps on the lot and found one more on a customer's car that was bad as well. I was doing a tune on this one and replacing the bad lift pump made a pretty nice difference.

When the lift is bad the PD's will still run fine as long as they're primed. The main symptoms are: When you start it, it takes several revolutions before it will fire, & it will slightly lack power almost the same as a weak MAF sensor.

To check if yours is working properly, raise the rear passenger side seat cushion, cycle the key & listen for the hum.

MOGolf · Jan 21, 2009

BioChoppers said:
I was doing a tune ... listen for the hum.

Can you name that tune?

Could you tell if there was any difference in deposits, etc., on the problem cars? Pick up screens clogged?

BioChoppers · Jan 21, 2009

MOGolf said:
Can you name that tune?

Could you tell if there was any difference in deposits, etc., on the problem cars? Pick up screens clogged?

They were all covered with black crap. I tried hooking one to my power supply on the bench with 12v and nothing. No current draw at all...

PDJetta · Jan 22, 2009

My lift pump failed (at 46,000 miles) when driving on the highway, without any warning and the engine just quit, without so much as a falter (just like the key was turned off). It refused to restart (but I did not crank it for more than several seconds and I only tried 3 times, to prevent damaging the starter). Since the car was under was under warranty, it was towed to the VW dealer and fixed, so I do not know the mode of pump failure.

--Nate

BioChoppers · Jan 22, 2009

PDJetta said:
My lift pump failed (at 46,000 miles) when driving on the highway, without any warning and the engine just quit, so I do not know the mode of pump failur.

Interesting.
This is what I would expect to normally be the case when they fail. I wonder if yours became clogged or something.

I went out and unplugged the lift pump as well and sure enough they still drove, start & ran. The only difference is instead of firing right up, it takes an extra one or two revolutions to start.

RT1 · Jan 22, 2009

That's a question I had in my mind. The lift pump doesn't really provide the pressure needed for the injectors on the PD. The pressure is bumped up by the tandem pump on the end of the cam shaft. Even if the lift pump fails (presuming the intake of that in-tank pump is not blocked with goo or ice) I'd think the suction of the tandem pump would keep the engine fueled. As long as that intake line was primed with fuel why wouldn't it just keep sucking fuel through the defunct lift pump? I have a copy of a VW self study manual that purports to be the 1.9 PD TDI which shows an engine that's similar to the BEW (not quite the same in some regards) but lacking a lift pump in the fuel supply schematic. I wonder if the early PD didn't have a lift pump or if there's more than one type of 1.9 PD engine?

04SlvrJetta · Feb 2, 2009

Any thoughts on a noisy lift pump. I am pretty sure that is what I am hearing. It has a grainy sound to it. It starts when the key is in the run position and stops a second or two after shutoff. Should I look into it or leave it alone?

DanG144 · Feb 2, 2009

PDJetta said:
My lift pump failed (at 46,000 miles) when driving on the highway, without any warning and the engine just quit, without so much as a falter (just like the key was turned off). It refused to restart (but I did not crank it for more than several seconds and I only tried 3 times, to prevent damaging the starter). Since the car was under was under warranty, it was towed to the VW dealer and fixed, so I do not know the mode of pump failure.

--Nate

If you have a hose or connection that will allow air to leak in when the fuel line goes to a vacuum, then this will happen.

It will also happen if your eductor jet pump nozzle is plugged.

Most cars will continue to run with slightly reduced maximum performance and or a little longer cranking time.

Quite a few PD owners do not discover a bad lift pump until they do a fuel filter change out, when they are not able to fill the filter by cycling the key a few times.

There are some early PD's in Europe which do not have lift pumps.

Lift pumps do make life easier.

Dan

DanG144 · Feb 2, 2009

RT1 said:
That's a question I had in my mind. The lift pump doesn't really provide the pressure needed for the injectors on the PD. The pressure is bumped up by the tandem pump on the end of the cam shaft. Even if the lift pump fails (presuming the intake of that in-tank pump is not blocked with goo or ice) I'd think the suction of the tandem pump would keep the engine fueled. As long as that intake line was primed with fuel why wouldn't it just keep sucking fuel through the defunct lift pump? I have a copy of a VW self study manual that purports to be the 1.9 PD TDI which shows an engine that's similar to the BEW (not quite the same in some regards) but lacking a lift pump in the fuel supply schematic. I wonder if the early PD didn't have a lift pump or if there's more than one type of 1.9 PD engine?

I think I covered this in my reply above.

More details are available in this post.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=225672

DanG144 · Feb 2, 2009

04SlvrJetta said:
Any thoughts on a noisy lift pump. I am pretty sure that is what I am hearing. It has a grainy sound to it. It starts when the key is in the run position and stops a second or two after shutoff. Should I look into it or leave it alone?

When they start grinding or groaning they are not long for this world.

I would order a new one, and either install it or have it standing by. I would make the decision by unplugging the old one (I think it is easier than pulling the fuse) and seeing if my car ran ok for a day. It will not harm anything in the short term. If operation is acceptable I would wait until total failure. If not, replace it immediately.

Note that any new pumps ordered from any source will not have the 'B' suffix, and will be configured (internally) differently than the OEM pump. If you use this pump the car will not be able to run when the electric pump fails, unless you do LCR's mod to it. (See the post referenced above - it wil lead you to the information.)

The original pump on the car had the 'B' suffix, and had the ability to allow the tandem pump to pull through the jet pump eductor orifice when the electric pump dies.

I would not use the "no suffix pump" in a PD (or not for long) without modifying it to allow the tandem pump to pull fuel through it after the electric pump dies. Though hundreds or thousands of people have done so. I would rather not have it be guaranteed that my engine dies and will not restart when the electric pump quits.

The 'B' suffix pump is no longer available from vendors or the dealer.

Dan

kazenami · Feb 2, 2009

My lift pump (a 'B' variant) died slowly over a period of a couple months this fall. Around 59-60000 miles. The only obvious symptom to me, aside from the lack of pump noise when the ignition was turned, was that my fuel economy went up about 3-4 mpg during the time the pump was dying/dead. With a new lift pump, it is back down to where it was before. I'd kind of rather have the improved fuel economy really.

I spoke with both World Impex and KermaTDI about replacing it with a 'B' pump but no such beastie was available from either at that time. Is it certain that the newer lift-pumps (though non-B) are still prone to failing closed such that the engine will not run? Where can a 'B' pump be obtained?

PDJetta · Feb 3, 2009

I have a spare lift pump in my trunk, so I just went to look to see what the part number is. I bought this replacement pump from a vendor on the TDI List as the OEM replacement in about 2006. Made by VDO. The VW part number is ground off (becacause its the same dealer item, but not sold through the dealer). The VDO number is 220 212 001 001. It seems the next number is a date code, and that is 207 2005. I assume that means the 207th day in the year 2005. This pump has a grey top. From what I recall, the VDO number is identical to the VDO number of the pump presently in the fuel tank, which is a VW dealer warranty replacement done at 46,000 miles in early 2006.

When the original pump failed, the engine just cut off when I was driving about 50 MPH, not so much as even an engine falter. For a few seconds, I had no idea the engine cut off and it refused to even catch on several attempts. I also could not hear the pump run under the rear seat when the key was turned on. Two days before I did notice a slightly louder "normal" pump sound when the key was turned to "glow" I thought little of it. Other than that, I do not know the mode of pump failure, since the dealer replaced it under warranty. I wanted to disect the pump, but they would not give it to me.

I have concluded that my PD would not run with the lift pump that failed. Maybe VDO (the OEM supplier) has redesigned the pump to allow the car to run when it fails. If so, I have no idea if I have the improved spare. Is there any way to check internally?

--Nate

whitedog · Feb 3, 2009

PDJetta said:
Is there any way to check internally?

--Nate

Check DanGs thread in my signature.

DanG144 · Feb 3, 2009

PDJetta said:
I have a spare lift pump in my trunk, so I just went to look to see what the part number is. I bought this replacement pump from a vendor on the TDI List as the OEM replacement in about 2006. Made by VDO. The VW part number is ground off (becacause its the same dealer item, but not sold through the dealer). The VDO number is 220 212 001 001. It seems the next number is a date code, and that is 207 2005. I assume that means the 207th day in the year 2005. This pump has a grey top. From what I recall, the VDO number is identical to the VDO number of the pump presently in the fuel tank, which is a VW dealer warranty replacement done at 46,000 miles in early 2006.

When the original pump failed, the engine just cut off when I was driving about 50 MPH, not so much as even an engine falter. For a few seconds, I had no idea the engine cut off and it refused to even catch on several attempts. I also could not hear the pump run under the rear seat when the key was turned on. Two days before I did notice a slightly louder "normal" pump sound when the key was turned to "glow" I thought little of it. Other than that, I do not know the mode of pump failure, since the dealer replaced it under warranty. I wanted to disect the pump, but they would not give it to me.

I have concluded that my PD would not run with the lift pump that failed. Maybe VDO (the OEM supplier) has redesigned the pump to allow the car to run when it fails. If so, I have no idea if I have the improved spare. Is there any way to check internally?

--Nate

Nate,
The grey top and white bottom typically indicates the aftermarket pump, with no suffix, and that will have no chance to supply fuel when it dies. This is what is typically carried by aftermarket vendors, and it sells for about $230. Note the external hose down to the eductor jet. The eductor jet can be seen from the bottom. We pulled 25" of vacuum on the fuel line from this style pump and got no fuel. The bright green high temperature viton lines are installed with Left Coast Resident's mod, the translucent white lines are stock.

[/IMG]

For the tan colored OEM 'B' suffix pump, with all fuel lines internal, we were able to pull adequate fuel to run the car with only 4" hg vacuum - similar to an ALH.
Note the bottom rough filter screen that covers the intake.
This sells for over
$300 and is typically available through VW only.

[/IMG]

If a car has no air leakage into its fuel lines, and there is nothing blocking the eductor jet then the 'B' variant pump will allow it to run after the electric pump fails. If you have an air leak or blocked eductor jet, then it will die.

PDJetta · Feb 3, 2009

Thanks Dan for the clarification.

My replacement pump I bought from the vendor appears to be the one with the grey top you have a picture of, with the green hose attached. I will check the color of the pump top in the one installed in my car (the one the dealer replaced under warranty). I do recall tghough that the VDO numbers were the same on the waranty pump and the replacement pump I got from the vendor. I do think that the tops may be different colors, though.

I am at about 95,000 miles since the lift pump replacement at 46,000 miles and all is well so far.

--Nate

jasonTDI · Feb 4, 2009

Seeing a lot of these fail lately.....

sdk131 · Feb 4, 2009

Hmmmmm...thanks for sharing this. I was under the impression the only mode of death was like PDJetta's where the entire engine would cutout and shut down....or just not start at all. I'll add this to my "keep an eye on it" list.

04SlvrJetta · Feb 4, 2009

Is there a screen to prevent dirt entering the pump? I ran mine out of fuel a few months back and wonder if it could have clogged up a screen (if it has one) What kills these things? Anybody know how much the OEM style costs??

DanG144 · Feb 4, 2009

You really do need to read this post for the details on screens and pump operation.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=225672

shane bowers · Feb 4, 2009

I checked mine yesterday and could not here it make noise from the front passenger seat I think I would like to have some one turn the key wile I am right next to it to make sure it is not working but I was able to unplug it and start the car and it runs as good as it has for some time now but when I first read this thread I felt mine was bad because I have been noticing that my 2005 PD has been starting a little harder than normal

If I find that mine is in-fact bad is any one sure that the dealer will have the pump with the B suffix

dirtyexhaust · Feb 5, 2009

lift pump

I have a 2006 jetta with some starting issues so I checked my pump after reading this post. I pulled off the fuel line from the fuel filter to injector pump and cycled the key but didn't crank the engine. I put the hose in a jar and it takes about 8 or 9 cycles to get any fuel in the jar. I hear the pump run for about a second when I turn the key. After 10 to 12 key turns I get the 50ml of fuel on each turn. Is this normal? Should the pump push gas on the inital turn?

whitedog · Feb 5, 2009

No, but it should push diesel.

These pumps are failing quite regularly these days.

DanG144 · Feb 5, 2009

dirtyexhaust said:
I have a 2006 jetta with some starting issues so I checked my pump after reading this post. I pulled off the fuel line from the fuel filter to injector pump and cycled the key but didn't crank the engine. I put the hose in a jar and it takes about 8 or 9 cycles to get any fuel in the jar. I hear the pump run for about a second when I turn the key. After 10 to 12 key turns I get the 50ml of fuel on each turn. Is this normal? Should the pump push gas on the inital turn?

If it reliably pumps that 50 ml every time after finally fills the system, then It sounds as if you are having some drain back issues caused by air inleakage. You might not have a pump issue at all.

How does it sound?
Dan

dirtyexhaust · Feb 7, 2009

The pump sounds fine. no grinding or odd sounds. just runs for a second as soon as I turn the key. I wonder where air can get in? This car only has the large o-ring on the fuel filter cap and I changed that. Maybe i'll replace the ctc clamps with screw clamps.

DanG144 · Feb 7, 2009

Does it have a bleed screw on top? or a screw that you remove and stick a hose down the hole for removing water? Air could leak in these.

It could also be on essentially any fuel line or the tandem pump.

jasonTDI · Feb 7, 2009

You SHOULD be hearing the pump EVERYTIME you turn the key. You do not have air. It's just pressurizing the line.

DanG144 · Feb 7, 2009

dirtyexhaust said:
I have a 2006 jetta with some starting issues so I checked my pump after reading this post. I pulled off the fuel line from the fuel filter to injector pump and cycled the key but didn't crank the engine. I put the hose in a jar and it takes about 8 or 9 cycles to get any fuel in the jar. I hear the pump run for about a second when I turn the key. After 10 to 12 key turns I get the 50ml of fuel on each turn. Is this normal? Should the pump push gas on the inital turn?

Jason,
It sure sounds to me as if he had air in the lines. He should get fuel on the initial turn of the key.
Dan

Route 66 · Feb 7, 2009

I would think that keeping the tank at least half full of fuel would help to keep the pump cool.

BleachedBora · Feb 7, 2009

All my pumps have been OEM from VW, complete with the whole part number; I did just get one in from another vendor to check it and it had the numbers ground off, but it was otherwise identical.

They are OEM white bottom, grey top. The current batch says 092-2008 and has the VW/AUDI/SEAT/SKODA symbols on it. I've called a couple dealers this morning in the US, UK and Germany and there is no such thing as a 1J0 919 050 B for the PD. The ONLY pump you can get, from VW, is the 1J0 919 050. It's the same pump most of the vendors here sell.

-BB

aespTDI · Feb 7, 2009

04SlvrJetta - Your pump is about to go out if it hasn't already. Here's my experience.

Bought my '05 last July in '08. I didn't know much about it until those here "enlightened" me. It started making a loud noise upon start up which at the time I took it as normal. I thought it was the start up noise that they refer to.

Then it began to get quite at start up. That sound which was so evident was no longer there. I pulled the supply line at the fuel filter and nothing was coming out when the key was turned on. Came to the decision that the lift pump was bad and ordered a new one, cost me $235 for the OEM version. Installed it and it made a difference.

Before it was sluggish and when idling at intersections the RPM's would fluctuate 100 or so. It seemed to go up and down slightly but you could see it in the needle movement.

All that is gone now and its a joy to drive. I even look for excuses to go out and drive it. Mine had 61k, save your money cause they are pricey but easy to install so at least you'll save on labor costs!

BEW/PD Owners check your lift pump

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