Geneva 08: Volkswagen Golf TDI Hybrid (US market in mind)

chewy

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CA
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Car reports that VW will show a Golf Hybrid at the Geneva autoshow. The car shown will be near production ready. VW claims about 26% more MPGs than the Toyota Prius and about 15% less C02 emissions. The article states that the technology is adaptable for the Jetta and the A3 and is made for sale in the US.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=17097
 

vw4life

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Sep 15, 2001
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New West, BC, Canada
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2014 Touareg TDI
No comments on this yet. This is exaclty the type of news tidbits that so many TDIclubers are clamouring for.

Maybe this should be in the news section. Hope this vapourware golf diesel hybrid shows up to the party quick!
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
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La Conner, WA
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... None :S
It's 1990 all over again! (VW developed a plug in hybrid in the 90s, it used the ECOdiesel motor, a 10 HP electric motor, and two computer controlled clutches)

-Jason
 

DPM

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2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
Sounds good. The figures match closely (VERY closely) those quoted by PSA for their forthcoming Hybrid HDI...
 

dieselyeti

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Fairfield CT
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2012 Passat TDI SE (DSG)
Quoted from Daily Tech article:

Other Golf-based vehicles that would be a prime target for the new powertrain include the upcoming VW Tiguan and Audi Q5 crossovers

A TDI hybrid Tiguan would be fantastic - I'm not holding my breath though. Wonder what one of those would cost? For now I'd be happy with a plain old TDI Tig.

Hybrid proponents often point out that while diesel are more efficient than gasoline motors, they are far dirtier.

More evidence that the hybrid crowd has their collective head up their butt :rolleyes:

According to the German automotive giant, the Golf Hybrid will achieve roughly 69.9 MPG here in the U.S. <snip> The (Peugeot) 308 Hybrid HDi features a 107 HP diesel engine which is paired to a 128 HP electric motor. The combined system helps the vehicle achieve 69 MPG.

What is it with 69 MPG diesel hybrids? It's a conspiracy, right? :D
 

frugality

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Spring Lake, Michigan
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twilkens said:
Great economy for the city and diesel for the highway.. what more could one want.
Trunk space. Gimme a nice 50+mpg TDI Rabbit without the batteries eating up trunk space. And VW isn't known for reliable electronics, so I don't want a new set of electrical headaches, along with the additional cost of a hybrid system.

Squirt fuel. Squeeze it. Kaboom.
Nice and simple.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
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dieselyeti said:
What is it with 69 MPG diesel hybrids? It's a conspiracy, right? :D
It simply, conveniently corresponds with a magic number in CO2 emissions: 89 grams/km (that is, magic being under a nice, round 90). CO2 emissions will be the new fuel efficiency yardstick going forward -- particularly in Europe -- that MPG and L/100km have been until now.

Same psychology as $69 rather than $70.
 

jollyGreenGiant

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03 Golf TDI GLS ( my 5th TDI ), 03 Eurovan GLS - VR6 :(
frugality said:
Trunk space. Gimme a nice 50+mpg TDI Rabbit without the batteries eating up trunk space. And VW isn't known for reliable electronics, so I don't want a new set of electrical headaches, along with the additional cost of a hybrid system.

Squirt fuel. Squeeze it. Kaboom.
Nice and simple.
I agree fully with this comment. Just focus on the simplest TDI that meets whatever requirements there are and bring it to market ASAP. How many city drivers are out there complaining about fuel mileage anyways?

All this money they waste on R&D should be spent on improving the dealer parts and service infrastructure in the USA IMO.
 

SoKYTDi

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2003 Golf GL 4-door
twilkens said:
http://www.dailytech.com/VW+Prepares+69+MPG+Dieselelectric+Hybrid+Golf/article10808c.htm

I've been thinking why doesn't someone put out a hybrid with diesel for some time. Damn I hope this comes to the US soon. Great economy for the city and diesel for the highway.. what more could one want.

Tim
I'm surprised someone hasn't done this sooner. General Electric has been making diesel-electric locomotives for decades for the same reasons in this article. Shouldn't be that hard to scale down.
 

MrMopar

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SoKYTDi said:
I'm surprised someone hasn't done this sooner. General Electric has been making diesel-electric locomotives for decades for the same reasons in this article. Shouldn't be that hard to scale down.
Easier said that done.

GE makes diesel-electric locomotives for different reasons than efficiency. Namely, they can't make a gearbox that can handle 5,000 hp from a prime mover. The same locomotives also don't use batteries for storing any energy.

Other than that, locomotive owners aren't really concerned by purchase prices. They can afford to spend millions up front because they're going to use that locomotive to haul millions of tons of freight for the next two or three decades of ownership. That averages out to pennies per day of ownership cost for the initial purchase.

To build a hybrid car for efficiency, there is the cost of the components - which cost real money to engineer small enough and light enough to fit in a car. Railroads don't care if the electric motor weights a few thousand pounds - that's nothing compared to the total weight of the locomotive. Then the battery cost big bucks too. And you have to deal with total purchase price, because your average owner will only get 10 years or less of usage out of the car before they sell it or junk it - compared to 30 years from a locomotive if the railroad keeps it well taken care of.
 

Gettin50MPGs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2004
In a 3500 pound car or 4000 pound mini-van I expect this type of engine to get around 60 - 65 mpg.

That would be a great thing for American consumers...

...shoot, never mind
 

goacom

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
The question is whether this will make any economic sense. This has always been the reason why diesel-hybrids were never implemented. Factor is a $2.5K premium for diesel and its emissions controls and another 4K premium for the hybrid component.

twilkens said:
http://www.dailytech.com/VW+Prepares+69+MPG+Dieselelectric+Hybrid+Golf/article10808c.htm

I've been thinking why doesn't someone put out a hybrid with diesel for some time. Damn I hope this comes to the US soon. Great economy for the city and diesel for the highway.. what more could one want.

Tim
 

Blonde Guy

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Santa Cruz, CA
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goacom said:
The question is whether this will make any economic sense. This has always been the reason why diesel-hybrids were never implemented. Factor is a $2.5K premium for diesel and its emissions controls and another 4K premium for the hybrid component.
If you drive 200K miles at 25 MPG with the current Rabbit, you use 8000 gallons of gasoline. If the hybrid gets 50 MPG, then you'll save 4000 gallons of fuel over that distance. At a premium of $6500 for the hybrid, it's only going to make economic sense if fuel costs more than $1.63 per gallon.

The price of fuel might go up or down. You have to guess which is more likely, and choose your vehicle.
 

GoFaster

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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
A little birdie told me a few things about this vehicle, and we can figure out a few more things for ourselves.

1.4 3-cyl TDI engine 85 kW (115 hp) - that's not a bad starting point. Presumably this will be commonrail and with all the new Tier 2 bin 5 emissions equipment - pretty much three-quarters of the new 2.0 commonrail TDI but with the old 79.5mm cylinder bore.

Motor has 15 kW (20 hp). The combined torque curve of the motor and engine is very good.

The mechanical layout is not unlike VW's earlier electric-hybrid prototypes - they've been doing this since the 1980's. The deal is that there is a single motor/generator between the engine and the gearbox (which is VW's now-conventional DSG - which I don't mind - but it could conceivably even be a row-it-yourself manual gearbox). Honda's system was like this, too, but the diff is that VW put the electric motor on the gearbox side of the clutch (the clutch is between the engine and the motor/generator) - this allows full electric drive, which is not possible with Honda's system. Unlike Toyota's system, VW's only requires one motor/generator instead of two, and that means one frequency-inverter instead of two (think: less $, less stuff to go wrong). VW's system also allows full mechanical drive with NONE of the power path going through the electrics (unlike Toyota) - this is better for highway driving. VW's can't act like a CVT, but with a 6-speed (or 7 speed? we don't know) DSG, this is not a big deal.

Battery pack weighs 35 kg and takes up 35 litres. I don't know where they put it. This is a bit smaller and lighter than the battery pack used by Prius. (Think $ again)

One would think that by knocking a cylinder off the engine, it'll offset some of the weight of the motor/generator, the frequency inverter, and the battery.

I really like this, and I'd consider buying one. WHEN, and HOW MUCH.

Having only one motor/generator and one frequency drive and a smaller battery pack (compared to Prius), and making use of a gearbox and engine that are more or less off the shelf should keep the extra cost under control.
 

chewy

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Location
CA
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Thanks for that info, sounds quite nice. The benefit of the hybrid system is that emission requirements are likely easier to meet. With electric help the diesel can probably not work as hard during the test and make fewer emissions. I think that's how the hybrids get clean ratings while having dirty tailpipes (the new Civic hybrid tailpipes don't look sparkling clean)
 

GoFaster

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Actually, hybrids present some interesting problems when it comes to emissions compliance. Catalysts only work when they are hot, and they're only hot enough when the engine is running and for a certain period of time after the engine stops. I don't know how they are dealing with this.
 

istewart

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Joined
Feb 20, 2006
GoFaster said:
VW's system also allows full mechanical drive with NONE of the power path going through the electrics (unlike Toyota) - this is better for highway driving.
How does this work, if the electric motor is sitting between the gearbox and the engine?

I think a drivetrain like this in the space up would make an ideal city car for me.
 

GoFaster

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istewart said:
How does this work, if the electric motor is sitting between the gearbox and the engine?

I think a drivetrain like this in the space up would make an ideal city car for me.
Electric motor drives the gearbox input shaft directly. (The electric motor needs no clutch between itself and the gearbox.) Clutch from the engine crankshaft also is linked to the gearbox input shaft.

Thus, the electric motor always runs at transmission input shaft speed, but the engine can be disengaged or engaged as required.
 

TDIMeister

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GoFaster said:
I really like this, and I'd consider buying one. WHEN, and HOW MUCH.
Wow, that's quite an endorsement from an anabashed KISS fan! :D
 

TDIMeister

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GoFaster said:
Actually, hybrids present some interesting problems when it comes to emissions compliance. Catalysts only work when they are hot, and they're only hot enough when the engine is running and for a certain period of time after the engine stops.
Exactly.
I don't know how they are dealing with this.
Start-stop and electric-only driving mode are only activated after the engine (or catalyst, there are thermocouples there) has reached a certain temperature. I believe the DOC reverts to a ceramic monolith rather than the now common metal core (the latter has a lower thermal inertial for fast light-off). Thermal management becomes much more important, and at least from what I have worked in, many of the auxiliaries (e.g. oil, water and vacuum pumps) are electrified. I don't know if VW would do this in production right away due to cost, but I've already seen it done.
 

BeetleGo

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Nice idea. But VW can't even get the cars to the NA market that they promised. I can't get excited until they are in the dealer parking lot.

~BeetleGo
 

ikendu

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BeetleGo said:
Nice idea. But VW can't even get the cars to the NA market that they promised. I can't get excited until they are in the dealer parking lot.

~BeetleGo
Exactly! I love talking about new, cool, high efficiency technology but I'd like even more to be able to BUY a vehicle of this type. How about if we start with a simple, already existing, 70 mpg, diesel Polo?
 

MrMopar

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Yelram said:
Forget this electric garbage, where are the diesel/hydraulic hybrids.
Hydraulic hybrids will be notoriously unreliable and expensive. Hydraulics will likely break down (leak) far earlier than any required maintenance for an electric component of a hybrid system.
 
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