Friend with 2.0 Jetta having issues

2000alhVW

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Silver Spring, MD
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2000 Golf
A friend is having trouble with a 2005 Jetta, 2.0L automatic.

He's a pretty amateur car mechanic, so I was surprised to hear he had just gotten done replacing the timing belt. He said he had to re-do it because "last weekend, it wouldn't start, so that means the timing was wrong."
I'm just relaying what he said.

He then said, he re-did the belt, and drove it around for ~45 mins, turned it off, restarted, ran some errands, etc. It ran and drove great, everything was good. Without turning it off, he went to put it in park, got out, got back in, put it in Drive, and the car shut off, and will not restart.

That's when I get there with VCDS. I turn the key, and the car starts up, but extremely poor idle, and struggling to rev.
I scan codes and it's got everything.


Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-BBW.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 032 RJ
Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/2V G 6505
Software Coding: 00003
Work Shop Code: WSC 00066
Additional Info: 3VWSA69MX5M072534 VWZ7Z0D0919086
VCID: 77FD8DF9551CD7F9FE-515E
17 Faults Found:

17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 35-00 - Incor. Correlation
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 35-00 - Incor. Correlation
18032 - MIL Request Signal Active (Check TCM for errors too!)
P1624 - 35-00 -
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 35-00 -
16685 - Cylinder 1
P0301 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16687 - Cylinder 3
P0303 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16688 - Cylinder 4
P0304 - 35-00 - Misfire Detected
16586 - Injector: Cylinder 2 (N31)
P0202 - 35-10 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent
16585 - Injector: Cylinder 1 (N30)
P0201 - 35-10 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent
16588 - Injector: Cylinder 4 (N33)
P0204 - 35-10 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent
16587 - Injector: Cylinder 3 (N32)
P0203 - 35-10 - Circuit Malfunction - Intermittent
17833 - EVAP Purge Valve (N80)
P1425 - 35-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
17880 - EVAP Leak Detection Pump
P1472 - 35-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
17843 - Secondary Air Pump Relay (J299)
P1435 - 35-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
16427 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S3: Heating Circuit
P0043 - 35-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
16421 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S2: Heating Circuit
P0037 - 35-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent
16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
P0102 - 35-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent

Readiness: 0010 1101


Above is the full gambit of error codes. He said during the 45 minute drive, he had taken it to Advance Auto for the CEL. I'm assuming they just use their generic VW-ignorant scanner, and the only code that showed up was "catalytic converter related," which I'm going to assume means it had an O2 sensor code - probably legitimate from before.

I cleared the codes. When started, P1340 (the 'camshaft sensor not matching crank sensor' code) immediately comes back. The car also runs exactly like a car with a bad/unplugged cam sensor. We looked around the cam sensor location, unplugged & re-plugged the connector, no change. Nothing looks broken, ripped, etc.
When trying to let it run a while longer, it starts to accumulate DTCs for multiple misfires. I looked at VCDS misfire data, and cyl4 is misfiring at about 4x the other cylinders.

If the above error codes are correct, it looks to me like the ECU is partially unplugged, or a large part of the wiring loom has issues. I looked at the sensors in question: MAF, O2, CAS, crank sensor, ignition coils, injectors; and all the wiring for those sensors seems to join at the loom right above the ATF cooler, but I couldn't find anything looking fishy.


Any ideas here?

At idle, the car runs like it's out of timing, but it will rev and smooth out.
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Sounds like a professional needs to redo the timing belt. Those are super easy to do, BUT, there are not any locking tools like on the diesels, so you have to line up marks properly. It would only take ~5 min to verify that is correct, but it sounds like it probably isn't.

The BEV is a good, simple, sturdy, reliable engine. There really isn't a whole lot that goes wrong with them, and nothing on them is especially difficult to service. Sometimes the ignition coils can get cracks in them causing a loss of spark especially on wet, cooler days, and this is made MUCH worse if the lower shields are left missing.
 

2000alhVW

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2000 Golf
Sounds like a professional needs to redo the timing belt. Those are super easy to do, BUT, there are not any locking tools like on the diesels, so you have to line up marks properly. It would only take ~5 min to verify that is correct, but it sounds like it probably isn't.
The BEV is a good, simple, sturdy, reliable engine. There really isn't a whole lot that goes wrong with them, and nothing on them is especially difficult to service. Sometimes the ignition coils can get cracks in them causing a loss of spark especially on wet, cooler days, and this is made MUCH worse if the lower shields are left missing.
Thanks for the reply. I think you're right in that something with the timing is amiss, but it running well for ~45 mins after the job was odd to me. Do you think it maybe didn't tension properly and jumped a tooth?

Also, my friend made a special comment about the motor being a "BBW"? The car is from California, so maybe that is relevant.

I just remembered - the reason he did the timing belt anyway is because the car stalled while his girlfriend was driving it. They had it towed to a shop, who listed doing the TB as their first action (not sure why...). They had the car towed home instead and did the TB there.
So my theory is the cam sensor is faulty and is a prior issue, but you think the timing is a tooth off possibly?
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Ah... the BBW is a different animal.... CARB spec, never done one, but they require several special tools. So now we know 100% it was done wrong. It DOES have a setting bar for the cam like a diesel, because it has a vario cam sprocket which must be loosened after a plug is removed. Similar to the AVK V6, which I have done.
 

2000alhVW

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2000 Golf
Ah... the BBW is a different animal.... CARB spec, never done one, but they require several special tools. So now we know 100% it was done wrong. It DOES have a setting bar for the cam like a diesel, because it has a vario cam sprocket which must be loosened after a plug is removed. Similar to the AVK V6, which I have done.
Don't worry, I will relay to him "he says you're stupid" on your behalf ;)
 

k_pt

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pt
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He is risking too much at this point ...

First check if the timing is spot on. If not, tensioner is probably no set properly and TB is jumping teeth.

Are the 3 bolts that hold the camshaft sprocket tight with specific torque?
 

2000alhVW

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He is risking too much at this point ...

First check if the timing is spot on. If not, tensioner is probably no set properly and TB is jumping teeth.

Are the 3 bolts that hold the camshaft sprocket tight with specific torque?
Right. I'm still not clear if the 2.0 gas motor is interference or not. Kinda important.
I think you're on the right track with tensioner loosening and jumping time, since he said it drove perfectly, on/off several times, then started running badly when he put it in Drive again.

In regards to the 3 bolts on the camshaft sprocket, is it possible they loosened, allowing the sprocket to rotate out of time slightly? Like something between 0 and 1 tooth out of time?
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
It is an interference engine.

There is one bolt, under a sealing plug at the end of the cam sprocket.
 

k_pt

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Right. I'm still not clear if the 2.0 gas motor is interference or not. Kinda important.
I think you're on the right track with tensioner loosening and jumping time, since he said it drove perfectly, on/off several times, then started running badly when he put it in Drive again.
In regards to the 3 bolts on the camshaft sprocket, is it possible they loosened, allowing the sprocket to rotate out of time slightly? Like something between 0 and 1 tooth out of time?

Nevermind the 3 bolts on the camshaft, I thought BBW was a TDI PD engine.

But the "tensioner theory" applies to any engine.
 

Ol'Rattler

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A T/B is one of those things you need to get 100% correct before you ever turn the key. That means that you need to competently understand the process and verify it is done correctly. Starting the engine to verify if the job is correct is a very bad idea.

Your friend needs to stop, find the correct procedure for his engine and make sure the timing is correct per the procedure. "It sure seemed to run right" doesn't mean much if running the engine is damaging it because you got something wrong.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
My gut feeling is the fellow had no idea how to do the job correctly, no manual, no access to the SSTs, and made the all too often mistake of thinking it could just be a slam and bam job.

Kinda sad, because it is actually EASIER to do the job correctly on many of these engines that require locking tools. But whatever, keeps me busy. I am undoing some Crimes Against Mechanicals on an ALH this week. Some "expert" in the quad cities area was the last one in here... paint pen and all. :rolleyes:
 

2000alhVW

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2000 Golf
I'm 100% with ya guys here.
This is why I try to avoid timing belt jobs if possible. Timing belt replacement, removing the head, head gasket issues, etc.

Likely, I'm more than overqualified, but it just makes me anxious, so I avoid it personally. I suppose it is a bit odd I've been wrenching at a moderate-high level for going on 8 years now, and I haven't done a TB and WP replacement, but it's sure better than smashing some valves because I was too cheap to buy the timing tools.

One thing I absolutely do not understand is why the paint marks don't work. If I had to guess, I would say it's because the cam sprockets have a strong tendency to move slightly when not restrained due to the valve springs.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
Because the sprocket(s) have to MOVE DURING THE TENSIONING process. It is actually quite simple. It insures EXACT timing placement.
 

compu_85

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Location
La Conner, WA
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... None :S
Yup. The crankshaft, camshaft (and injection pump on a rotary TDI) are fixed in place with the locking device. The tensioner is tightened, and the loose sprockets will move just a bit - but the relationship between the cam, pump, and crank doesn't change.

-J
 

Matt-98AHU

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2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Oilhammer et al have covered the cam to crank correlation code for sure.

The other codes are all components powered up by the fuel pump relay through a couple different fuses. But, if the car is currently starting and running, they're currently all getting power.

Is possible the fuel pump relay has an iffy solder joint internally and is causing intermittent issues as well.

But definitely want to make sure the timing belt is done right before worrying about that.
 

2000alhVW

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Thanks for the additional posts.

I haven't seen the car again in person yet, but my friend said he did the timing belt job over again (with 1 of the 2 tools needed, I think) and it did the same thing again. Ran for 10-20 minutes, then suddenly (like flipping a switch) started running nasty.
I don't know. I'm supposed to go back over with VCDS tomorrow, but I'm almost certain it's gonna be a re-run of last week - a myriad of trouble codes all pointing to improper timing.

Who knows
 

Ol'Rattler

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Did the car run correctly prior to him working on it? If he can't show you with 100% certainty that the timing is correct, don't even bother plugging in your VCDS. Crank to cam timing is not something you troubleshoot. Either it is correct or not correct and you need to know with 100% certainty that it is correct before you even think about turning the key. Having to "re-do" the timing means you have failed and may have caused severe engine damage.
 
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2000alhVW

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Did the car run correctly prior to him working on it?
I asked him about that, and his reply was a bit vague. I hate to entertain these types of things, because it's so convoluted, and introduces so much uncertainty, but here's what he said:

It's his girlfriend's car. She's from California and drove it here to Washington DC about a year ago. Friend said she reported the TB was done prior to her leaving from CA (I'm assuming ~10k miles ago). She was driving along, and it cut out on her, I believe (can't remember if it cut out, or started to run poorly). She had it towed to a shop. For some reason (can't quite figure out why), the shop's #1 priority was to do a timing belt job. They quoted like $900. Then I asked him "oh did the TB snap...?" And he said "No. The belt didn't snap. I removed the old belt in one piece. It was still connected, and was not loose."
I'm not sure if shop wanted to do TB job for 'good insurance' or just trying to take advantage of a young woman.
My friend had it towed back to his place to do the TB job himself, and here we are.

To re-state: "After TB job, it ran perfectly, driving around for 45 mins. One time, while still running he witched it from Park to Drive, and it flipped a switch and ran extremely poorly. It shut off, and could not get it to restart"


Again, I completely understand that I'm introducing 2nd and 3rd hand information here. I'm not overly worried about the car. Not really my issue, just want to be helpful if I can.
 

2000alhVW

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I asked the girlfriend directly and here is a copy-paste quote of her reply


So I drove my car just fine in the morning but when I tried to drive it in the evening it kinda sputtered when I started the engine and then I made it maybe 3 minutes before the engine stalled. I thought it was the battery so I had someone try to jump it for me and it wasn’t working. I left it somewhere for a couple days and then went back with jay and it started just fine and I drove it for maybe 15 minutes on the highway before it stalled again. So then jay changed the battery and it managed to run for another hour to get us home on that Saturday. I drove it the next day and everything was still okay. And then that Monday it wouldn’t start.

This is before my friend touched it. When her testimony, I'm thinking the camshaft sensor may actually have an intermittent failure.

Comments?
 

Matt-98AHU

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If all the codes had been cleared from the previous incident, I would start there. See which codes have recurred, cam position or all of the electrical codes that indicate there's an intermittent issue with the fuel pump relay.
 

2000alhVW

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2000 Golf
He said while he was driving properly after the TB job, he took it to Autozone and, relaying what he said, "they just said it needs an O2 sensor or cat, but there weren't any other codes". So, he's saying at that time, it just had an O2 sensor code.

Then it runs rough. I scanned it, and it initially had like 20 codes. I copy-pasted the VCDS screen. It had pretty much every electrical code. Camshaft sensor, ignition coils, MAF, O2 sensor, multiple misfires, etc. He says those were not there ~2 hours prior.

Then I reset it, and it immediately threw a code for camshaft sensor.

I talked to him and he says he ordered a replacement camshaft sensor. Seems reasonable to me given that it had issues running before.
 

2000alhVW

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My friend got a new camshaft sensor put in, but apparently the battery drained itself and died. Not sure what's up with that other than the fans seem to "always run". Turn the key to "on", fans on. Start it, fans on. Turn it off, remove key...fans on...10mins later...fans on...
Car was started and immediately turned off, so it's still cold.
Fans stayed on so long I unplugged the battery when I was there poking around.
He said he has to reset the "EPC code" since it won't let the car start?

In other news:
I was looking for a cheapo to tinker with.
I find a seemingly solid CL buy. 2003 Jetta, 5spd, 2.0, 1 owner, 107k miles. Asking $1000.
From what I can see from the 3 bad pictures, it actually seems okay. And it's 15 mins away! I talk the seller, older woman (good sign!)

I go see the car. Black paint :( but good condition overall :eek:
Runs and drives great. Everything works. It's been maintained at the same VW specialty shop for the last 9 years, and they have all the records on their computer available for print out.
4 brand new tires, new battery, timing belt done 10k miles ago.

This thing seems like a real deal for $1000! AND she's mentioning discounts for "I'm sorry I don't have the remote key" and "I lost the owner's manual".
She talked herself down to $750 and I didn't even mention price.

"Do you mind if I open the hood?"
As I'm opening the hood, she continues talking...
I bought it originally in California and drove it here myself
*scary movie dramatic music*
:eek::eek::mad::mad:

*look under the hood*

OMFG IT'S THAT DAMN BBW MOTOR! And all of it's sprawling emissions equipment metaphorically hissing like a King Cobra

What are the odds...2 women both drove their CA-spec Jettas 3500 miles across the country to live in Washington DC.
Crazy
 
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eddieleephd

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2002 jetta Wagon
What she told you in a gasser translates to my fuel filter hasn't been changed in an extremely long time and needs to be change, The shop knew that and understood that she didn't have a clue and tried to get a timing belt job out of her.
The boyfriend has no clue *** he's doing and didn't diagnose it himself, assumed (ass-U-Me) the shop was right and either he damaged the engine, or the original issue is causing the car to run like crap because when a car doesn't have enough fuel to run it does that!
Change the fuel filter and let us know the BF feels like a JackA** for thinking a shop would have a clue and tell him to leave the diagnosing to the local VW specific shop that's not the Dealer.
 

turbocharged798

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Probably wouldn't be hard to swap the BBW to AVH or one of its similar counterparts. And ALH would be even better..
 

2000alhVW

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2000 Golf
Went over to jump the car. It would crank, but would not fire. My friend was sure it was due to some sort of "EPC block" on the fuel system.

I brought over VCDS, plugged it in. Cleared all the codes I could find. Still won't start. He tinkers with it, somehow clears something and it starts.
Runs great. We drive it around, flogging it for a good 25mins. Park, get some food. Start it up, drive home. Still runs great.
Suddenly it stalls at a red light. Tried to restart - it sputters once. Try again, sputters halfway. Try after that, just cranks. Burning up residual fuel in the lines I assume.

At this point, I'm certain it's a heat-sensitive issue such as a fuel relay or maybe the fuel pump itself.

Push the car to the side of the road, Uber back to my trusty TDI. Come back to the car, it starts right up.
Drive it home, it stalls again pulling into the parking space.

So now we're trying to diagnose where the fault is in the fuel system, and apparently not only are many details of this car specific to the BBW motors, but apparently it's a 2004.5 model year BBW specific car!
Gotta love it. It's like VW actively tries to invent new ways to make sure their cars don't stay on the road for more than 120k miles.

Even though all the other 2.0s use a 409 fuel relay, this one uses a special "466" relay that has an extra pin for a fuel overflow signal from the pump. The fuel filter is "lifetime" and it's built into the pump, so it's in tank. And the pump has a 3 hose setup with an overflow fuel signal that trips the relay.
I've read a few different threads where these BBW fuel-system parts don't even show up in the dealer parts catalogs...
What a headache.
 

eddieleephd

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2002 jetta Wagon
So a clogged fuel filter results in the purchase of a new pump. Filter is clogging I almost guarantee it. This causes the pump to over heat and stop in the end. I would pull the pump and see if I can change the filter, out fabricate a way.
Age old issue, as I said before, filters clog and the car runs then stalls.
Did he ever get on it good and show more power than expected, or did it get limited around 2500rpm?

Camshaft sensor is responsible for the vehicle starting because the ECU has to know when to fire the cylinder and is usually a reason why the gas engines crank without starting at all. Heat could affect that and cause this same issue.
 
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Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Went over to jump the car. It would crank, but would not fire. My friend was sure it was due to some sort of "EPC block" on the fuel system.
I brought over VCDS, plugged it in. Cleared all the codes I could find. Still won't start. He tinkers with it, somehow clears something and it starts.
Runs great. We drive it around, flogging it for a good 25mins. Park, get some food. Start it up, drive home. Still runs great.
Suddenly it stalls at a red light. Tried to restart - it sputters once. Try again, sputters halfway. Try after that, just cranks. Burning up residual fuel in the lines I assume.
At this point, I'm certain it's a heat-sensitive issue such as a fuel relay or maybe the fuel pump itself.
Push the car to the side of the road, Uber back to my trusty TDI. Come back to the car, it starts right up.
Drive it home, it stalls again pulling into the parking space.
So now we're trying to diagnose where the fault is in the fuel system, and apparently not only are many details of this car specific to the BBW motors, but apparently it's a 2004.5 model year BBW specific car!
Gotta love it. It's like VW actively tries to invent new ways to make sure their cars don't stay on the road for more than 120k miles.
Even though all the other 2.0s use a 409 fuel relay, this one uses a special "466" relay that has an extra pin for a fuel overflow signal from the pump. The fuel filter is "lifetime" and it's built into the pump, so it's in tank. And the pump has a 3 hose setup with an overflow fuel signal that trips the relay.
I've read a few different threads where these BBW fuel-system parts don't even show up in the dealer parts catalogs...
What a headache.
Did you at least make note of what all the codes were?

Scan it again since it had the stalling issue and this time, SAVE THE CODES.
 
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