I'm looking for a HX Civic, but just got offered a TDI wagon...help comparing?

Basically I am looking for a 5spd 1996-2000 Honda civic HX, but someone with a nice (in a single picture) 2003 TDI wagon asked if I would be interested. I am.

However, my $3500 budget set aside for a Honda would have to stretch a bit, *edit* his asking price is falling, and now down to $7500. It's a deep blue 5spd. Has 150k mikes currently. Had a supposed belt and h2o pump done around 100k miles. Not sure about receipts. States he hasn't had it long, I'm still insure why he's selling.



My question is, what's the expected investment like, long term, for this car? OK mechanically inclined but I'm a newb to VW TDI. I read PLENTY of reviews saying electrical issues and wheel bearing replacements are a regular thing, among other common "stop your journey and fix this thing" issues. I also read that you have to pick mechanics carefully or do things yourself so I'm weary of taking on a car that will beg for attention with annoying issues, while Hondas just work. I can do my own work like cleaning EGR tubes, but I don't want a nagging hobby for a car. My last car did the gremlin BS, and I hated when things like my dome light would die for no reason, or my car alarm would blare at 3am, unprovoked. I have better things to mess with and engineering mistakes bother me (why should I fix VW's mistakes basically). I need my car to work properly.

Also I rode in my friend's beetle of the same era and the plastics were horrid, the finish wearing off and everything electric broke... Making me lean toward the fear that the bad reviews about reliability and nuisance, expensive repairs would make my investment pointless... Especially when $4000-$4500 more for the VW will buy a LOT of gas if I were to get the Honda.

I found an OLD thread on this but for the sake of not resurrecting the years-old thread I'd like to start my own.

I'm also concerned about safety, and it seems the TDI is safer. Honda has two airbags, that's it. I do like a trunk for discreet safety for my stuff too, which a glass hatch wont quite provide (and I think the sedan tdi is ugly)..but if this car is capable of sleeping in the back (I'm 6ft tall) I could justify it.

Can someone help me rationalize this?

Civic info:
HX civic would give 40-45 mpg properly driven and maintained on LRR tires. 100k mile timing belt intervals like the TDI. Four seats, two doors, lightweight, and a trunk for my gear. Some don't have A/C but even to install that myself isn't an issue and still well below $5k for a well kept one. Engines go for 250k easy before needing work, sometimes more. All together cheap and reliable, only downside is late 90s safety with only two air bags.

Figit090 said:

Basically I am looking for a 5spd 1996-2000 Honda civic HX, but someone with a nice (in a single picture) 2003 TDI wagon asked if I would be interested. I am.

However, my $3500 budget set aside for a Honda would have to stretch with a loan to get meat his $8k asking price. It's a deep blue 5spd, nice rims and low profile tires. 150k with a new supposed belt and h2o pump around 100k miles. Not sure about receipts.

My question is, what's the expected investment like, long term, for this car? Im a nrwb to VW TDI, but read PLENTY of reviews saying electrical issues and wheel bearing replacements are a regular thing, among other common "stop your journey and fix this thing" issues. I also read that you have to pick mechanics carefully or do things yourself so I'm weary of taking on a car that will beg for attention with annoying issues, while Hondas just work. I can do my own work like cleaning EGR tubes, but I don't want a hobby for a car. My last car did the gremlin BS, and I hated when things like my dome light would die for no reason, or my car alarm would blare at 3am, unprovoked. I have better things to mess with and engineering mistakes bother me (why should I fixnVW's mistakes basically).

Also I rode in my friend's beetle of the same era and the plastics were horrid, the finish wearing off and everything electric broke... Making me lean toward the fear that the bad reviews about reliability and nuisance, expensive repairs would make my investment pointless... Especially when $4000-$4500 morenfornthe VW will buy a LOT of gas if I were to get the Honda.

I found an OLD thread on this but for the sake of not resurrecting the years-old thread I'd like to start my own.

I'm also concerned about safety, does the 2003 have good safety features? Honda has two airbags, that's it. I do like a trunk for discreet safety for my things too, which a glass hatch wont quite provide (and I think the sedan tdi is ugly)..but if this car is capable of sleeping in the back (I'm 6ft tall) I could justify it.

Can someone help me rationalize this?

Civic info:
HX civic would give 40-45 mpg properly driven and maintained on LRR tires. 100k mile timing belt intervals like the TDI. Four seats, two doors, lightweight, and a trunk for my photo gear. Some don't have A/C but even to install that myself isn't an issue and still well below $5k for a well kept one. Engines go for 250k easy before needing work, sometimes more. All together cheap and reliable, only downside is late 90s safety with only two air bags. No idea on jettas.

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This Jetta comes with 6 airbags including side air curtains. They also have 5 star ratings for crashes. It's got the other safety improvements for side crashes and is overall a more solid car to drive.

I think the asking price is way too much.

a $5k loan on a 12 year old car? probably not the best decision to make. If that wagon does not come with something for your left foot and right hand to entertain while driving, then you need to search about the longevity of the 01M transmission. Some get many miles out of them but others see problems that are not fixed on the cheap.

I agree with jokila, $8k is too much. It's almost certain that you're going to need to dump money into it right away (same would be for any Civic or other, ANYTHING that's used unless there's absolute rock solid records indicating otherwise), just no idea how much. If you blow your budget just getting a car then you have nothing in reserve to address any urgent issues.

Figure with any VW/TDI you're pretty much only going to "save" money if you DIY. That, of course, means your time.

Both my Golfs are getting right around 50mpg. When fuel costs become less affordable, which they will (either prices up [for most of our needs] or wages down), a possible 25% better fuel mileage from an TDI might make a big difference (for me, my two TDIs definitely cut down on fuel bills; now then, if I can get the repairs settled down [both are new cars for me] I'm hoping that my repair costs and time costs drop significantly the fuel savings will actually BE savings).

jokila said:

This Jetta comes with 6 airbags including side air curtains. They also have 5 star ratings for crashes. It's got the other safety improvements for side crashes and is overall a more solid car to drive.
I think the asking price is way too much.

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What's a fair price? I'm having trouble finding values on this car, still looking. Seems KBB thinks its a <$6k car if its a GL or whatever, but it has leather and a moonroofnso IMG guessing GLS?

Thanks for your help. I'm happy to hear about the airbags, and wondering of I should set.my sights higher onto a TDO just for that reason....

jokila said:

I think the asking price is way too much.

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Agreed. Bold is mine.............

Oh, you mention buying a car as an "investment." Unless it's used to generate revenue (Rembrandt does that, so in his case he's looking good!) you're NOT going to be seeing any gains.

You didn't like the Beetle, which is also an MK4/A4. Don't torture yourself, get the Civic.

waltzconmigo said:

If that wagon does not come with something for your left foot and right hand to entertain while driving

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It says 5spd in his original post.

belome said:

It says 5spd in his original post.

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added: yep, you are correct, reread the whole post and i missed that portion on the first read.

that looks to be in reference to the civic, if the j/w is also a manual that helps to justify the price, still high but it is west coast. I would not take out a loan without meticulous records but that is something the OP has to decide.

Cars are not an investment because you use up the equity (value) by putting miles on them.

At one point in time, my 2006 was actually worth more than what I paid for it according to KBB. 2006 was the last year for TDI's befor the CR TDI's came out in 2009.

I could have sold it, but then I would have to replace it and started making payments all over again.

It always scares me when they say belt and waterpump... instead of belt and everything it touches.

Figit090 said:

...My question is, what's the expected investment like, long term, for this car? Im a nrwb to VW TDI, but read PLENTY of reviews saying electrical issues and wheel bearing replacements are a regular thing, among other common "stop your journey and fix this thing" issues. I also read that you have to pick mechanics carefully or do things yourself so I'm weary of taking on a car that will beg for attention with annoying issues, while Hondas just work. I can do my own work like cleaning EGR tubes, but I don't want a hobby for a car. My last car did the gremlin BS, and I hated when things like my dome light would die for no reason, or my car alarm would blare at 3am, unprovoked. I have better things to mess with and engineering mistakes bother me (why should I fixnVW's mistakes basically).

Also I rode in my friend's beetle of the same era and the plastics were horrid, the finish wearing off and everything electric broke... Making me lean toward the fear that the bad reviews about reliability and nuisance, expensive repairs would make my investment pointless... Especially when $4000-$4500 morenfornthe VW will buy a LOT of gas if I were to get the Honda.
...

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Well put. As well as agreeing with the above opinions in that the asking price on the Jetta is very optimistic, I will add my own advice: 'If you have to ask, the answer is no.' Enjoy the Honda.

Cheers,

PH

Figit090 said:

What's a fair price? I'm having trouble finding values on this car, still looking. Seems KBB thinks its a <$6k car if its a GL or whatever, but it has leather and a moonroofnso IMG guessing GLS?

Thanks for your help. I'm happy to hear about the airbags, and wondering of I should set.my sights higher onto a TDO just for that reason....

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The problem is there aren't many wagons in general so they are hard to get a price from KBB. The car is 12 years old and over 100K miles so you will most likely not get a regular car loan for that. The differences between GL and GLS for that year were aluminum wheels, sunroof, and monsoon radio. The leather is nice, but it's not a big deal at this age. In my mind, it doesn't change the cost to you.

To answer your question though, I think the utility of the wagon is nice but it's not worth more than a $1000 vis a vis sedans. Maybe even less given the age of car.

Powder Hound said:

Well put. As well as agreeing with the above opinions in that the asking price on the Jetta is very optimistic, I will add my own advice: 'If you have to ask, the answer is no.' Enjoy the Honda.
Cheers,
PH

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Safety is important and a 2 bag tin can is unsafe. Think about the Jetta but go in with a better price.

I forgot to mention that low profile tires and mag wheels don't mean anything. You don't pay extra for things like that unless it's THE thing that makes the car. I don't see how that matters. Besides, I hope the tire/rim combo is the same height as the originals otherwise the mpg will be off.

For comparison.

Here's a TDI wagon car in Houston. 2010 model. 127K miles. Leatherette. Asking $9450.

http://houston.craigslist.org/ctd/5080727918.html

waltzconmigo said:

a $5k loan on a 12 year old car? probably not the best decision to make. If that wagon does not come with something for your left foot and right hand to entertain while driving, then you need to search about the longevity of the 01M transmission. Some get many miles out of them but others see problems that are not fixed on the cheap.

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Good points, all. I do think the safety features are worth money but maybe I can find something more affordable and newer, or just get a civic like I planned and drive safely.

UhOh said:

I agree with jokila, $8k is too much. It's almost certain that you're going to need to dump money into it right away (same would be for any Civic or other, ANYTHING that's used unless there's absolute rock solid records indicating otherwise), just no idea how much. If you blow your budget just getting a car then you have nothing in reserve to address any urgent issues.

Figure with any VW/TDI you're pretty much only going to "save" money if you DIY. That, of course, means your time.

Both my Golfs are getting right around 50mpg. When fuel costs become less affordable, which they will (either prices up [for most of our needs] or wages down), a possible 25% better fuel mileage from an TDI might make a big difference (for me, my two TDIs definitely cut down on fuel bills; now then, if I can get the repairs settled down [both are new cars for me] I'm hoping that my repair costs and time costs drop significantly the fuel savings will actually BE savings).

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I'll be able to handle parts costs and diy on a civic, those are easy.

I think you've talked me out of it. Ill researxh the prius options (*groan*) too. Thanks for the help everyone. I guess my stay here will be short lived.

you should know that the '03 wagon (added: manual) is considered by many on this site as the unicorn of tdi's. the wagon/golf are more expensive than the jetta/bug in most cases. you mentioned that the jetta may be more preferable to you to begin with. check out this link, it may provide you with more insight in your decision.

http://foobert.com/

good luck with whatever you end up with.

Always, it's about the "right tool for the job." I have no allegiances to any brand or even to any particular powerplant: I once swore I'd NEVER have a diesel-powered car; HA (now have two of them)!

I have a slight curiosity about what sort of issues older, used Priuses encounter. Alas, I've made my choice, invested in it, and now have to just live with it for as long as it continues to work for me...

UhOh said:

Oh, you mention buying a car as an "investment." Unless it's used to generate revenue (Rembrandt does that, so in his case he's looking good!) you're NOT going to be seeing any gains.

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I guess I'm a little late to the discussion here...lol.

My situation is certainly different than most...most of the year, I get 49 cents per kilometer for work, so having a car that gets 1300+ kms to a tank full of diesel does pay me.

We've had quite a few Hondas...and my wife had a couple Acuras as well. They really are fantastic cars, and are very reliable. A good friend of mine put over 600,000 kms on two different Hondas (he was doing 100k a year for work).

Besides being a work car...the old TDI has been a bit of a hobby for me as well. I personally wouldn't recommend an 03 TDI to someone unless they had a very good understanding of what they were getting and were prepared to spend some time and money on it.

I absolutely love mine...and I think they're great little cars, but they're not for everybody. JMTCW.

Rem

UhOh said:

Oh, you mention buying a car as an "investment." Unless it's used to generate revenue (Rembrandt does that, so in his case he's looking good!) you're NOT going to be seeing any gains.

You didn't like the Beetle, which is also an MK4/A4. Don't torture yourself, get the Civic.

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Main transport for my photography business. It's a tool. That being said I think I can further my business much more with 4k extra I dontbhave to spend, and you're right on it not being an investment. Thanks

waltzconmigo said:

added: yep, you are correct, reread the whole post and i missed that portion on the first read.

that looks to be in reference to the civic, if the j/w is also a manual that helps to justify the price, still high but it is west coast. I would not take out a loan without meticulous records but that is something the OP has to decide.

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I won't take out a loan then but I could borrow from family. I don't want to though and all the reminders about the age of the car help.
Thanks for the advice.

Ol'Rattler said:

Cars are not an investment because you use up the equity (value) by putting miles on them.

At one point in time, my 2006 was actually worth more than what I paid for it according to KBB. 2006 was the last year for TDI's befor the CR TDI's came out in 2009.

I could have sold it, but then I would have to replace it and started making payments all over again.

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Another mention of the investment bit, I mostly think of it as investing in my business but perhaps I use the wrong term. Since it won't appreciate I believe you both are correct. Not an investment.
Thanks!

Powder Hound said:

Well put. As well as agreeing with the above opinions in that the asking price on the Jetta is very optimistic, I will add my own advice: 'If you have to ask, the answer is no.' Enjoy the Honda.
Cheers,
PH

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haha, good point and the quote works for me. Thank you.

jokila said:

The problem is there aren't many wagons in general so they are hard to get a price from KBB. The car is 12 years old and over 100K miles so you will most likely not get a regular car loan for that. The differences between GL and GLS for that year were aluminum wheels, sunroof, and monsoon radio. The leather is nice, but it's not a big deal at this age. In my mind, it doesn't change the cost to you.

To answer your question though, I think the utility of the wagon is nice but it's not worth more than a $1000 vis a vis sedans. Maybe even less given the age of car.

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Thanks! That helps.

jokila said:

Safety is important and a 2 bag tin can is unsafe. Think about the Jetta but go in with a better price.

I forgot to mention that low profile tires and mag wheels don't mean anything. You don't pay extra for things like that unless it's THE thing that makes the car. I don't see how that matters. Besides, I hope the tire/rim combo is the same height as the originals otherwise the mpg will be off.

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Excellent point about the tire rotation vs mpg reading. Also sadly I'll probably get an ex but I'm upgrading from a 1987 Toyota supra. Unsure how they compare bit I'm hoping the Honda is a bit better with airbags. I liked the long hood and weight of the supra but they didn't crash test that model. Oh well. I'll look at some newer hybrids as well for models I can afford...

jokila said:

For comparison.

Here's a TDI wagon car in Houston. 2010 model. 127K miles. Leatherette. Asking $9450.

http://houston.craigslist.org/ctd/5080727918.html

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Thank you!

I didn't read the other posts in detail so this might have been covered, but the Civic is the most uncomfortable POS to drive, ever! The MK4 is a much more solid and comfortable vehicle when compared to the Civic. So that is one thing to consider.

Personally if your broke then I would get the cheapest to maintain vehicle you can and that would be the Civic. If you are complete DIY the TDI is rock solid, but if your not up to the task of your own repairs (time and/or skill) stay with a main stream beater.

keaton85 said:

I didn't read the other posts in detail so this might have been covered, but the Civic is the most uncomfortable POS to drive, ever! The MK4 is a much more solid and comfortable vehicle when compared to the Civic. So that is one thing to consider.

Personally if your broke then I would get the cheapest to maintain vehicle you can and that would be the Civic. If you are complete DIY the TDI is rock solid, but if your not up to the task of your own repairs (time and/or skill) stay with a main stream beater.

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If I don't like the seats I'll swap them out. Otherwise I don't mind so much that it will feel tinny but I've yet to drive either car extensively.

Also, im not broke but I do have to be careful with spending. Mostly I was concerned about the jetta having all sorts of issues. I can fox sensors and valves and sich but if they cost $500 per problem that makes it one hell of an expense.

Hondas are cheap to fix so I'll just go with that i think.

I do like the idea of a safer car... But it seems like a risk to get a jetta right now. I'm not sure I want to spend much on an older car, I think I'll save up for a nice hybrid and rock a Honda until then.

Find a Jetta TDI car, you can find them cheaper than a wagon. 8K for a wagon in good shape is about right, around here, they start at 6K and go to 12K for the MK4's. I've never driven a high mileage Civic that feels as good as both my Jetta's. I am a convert for sure.
The timing belt is really the only expensive part, the rest is the same as a gasser, barring a major engine failure.

My first tank I got 715 km's to 12 gallons, 2nd tank after some tweaking got me 820 and I don't use the go pedal softly.

What scares me more is that the waterpump was done at 100K and the belt at 150K. Who changes the belt and not the pump or the pump and not the belt? Not me. When one or the other needs changing, a deluxe TB kit is used to replace EVERYTHING at onece.

belome said:

It always scares me when they say belt and waterpump... instead of belt and everything it touches.

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owr084 said:

What scares me more is that the waterpump was done at 100K and the belt at 150K. Who changes the belt and not the pump or the pump and not the belt? Not me. When one or the other needs changing, a deluxe TB kit is used to replace EVERYTHING at onece.

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That's what informed people do and we have the knowledge and vendors who have been doing this. The dealer doesnt have kits. They sell individual parts and we all know the stories of reusing TTY bolts due to all of the parts being sold individually with no emphasis on what is really needed.

If VW TDIs aren't your passion then you won't know what is best. I had a shop here in Houston ask me if I wanted the water pump done with the timing belt service. As if...

That.

The 03 wagon is a very good car, if you do the work yourself. It is getting old enough to have to be an enthusiasts' car. If you rely on others to do the work, it will get expensive.

If you're not really familiar with wrenching, I'd recommend the Honda.

Nice looking TDI, but after rereading your opening post, I would have to say pass on the VW.

Reply to everyone at bottom.

jokila said:

That's what informed people do and we have the knowledge and vendors who have been doing this. The dealer doesnt have kits. They sell individual parts and we all know the stories of reusing TTY bolts due to all of the parts being sold individually with no emphasis on what is really needed.
If VW TDIs aren't your passion then you won't know what is best. I had a shop here in Houston ask me if I wanted the water pump done with the timing belt service. As if...
That.

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I had to be handy and careful with my supra, it was a bit of an enthusiast's car. I can handle it but I don't care for regularly opening the dash and door panels to search for wiring harness issues. Also, do column switches or expensive switches fail? One did on my mom's van and new that sucker was several hundred I think... So one broken switch could forfeit gas costs of a substantial road trip!

rdkern said:

The 03 wagon is a very good car, if you do the work yourself. It is getting old enough to have to be an enthusiasts' car. If you rely on others to do the work, it will get expensive.

If you're not really familiar with wrenching, I'd recommend the Honda.

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My initiation into auto mechanics was learning on my own and with a forum and shop manual how to replace a breadbasket on an inline six. Then I helicoiled a stripped exhaust gasket nearest the firewall, IN-CAR..tight fit. I can handle most things but I have to research a bit.

turbovan+tdi said:

Find a Jetta TDI car, you can find them cheaper than a wagon. 8K for a wagon in good shape is about right, around here, they start at 6K and go to 12K for the MK4's. I've never driven a high mileage Civic that feels as good as both my Jetta's. I am a convert for sure.
The timing belt is really the only expensive part, the rest is the same as a gasser, barring a major engine failure.

My first tank I got 715 km's to 12 gallons, 2nd tank after some tweaking got me 820 and I don't use the go pedal softly.

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I'll keep looking at TDI's... Heard one and they soud aweful but for a safe lomg-running engine car I'd be interested. I'll have to keep searching for what parts that fail will cost me I guess.



Basically...
It really comes down to knowing what fixing electrical gremlins will cost. I can do basic and even advanced stuff but I don't want to spend another $1k and days of work looking for an electrical short in a car-length harness, just so my dome light or electric locks can work again. That's my worry. I will keep searching but I thought I'd just get a quick response from enthusiasts as to how often you have to rip apart your interior or under the bonnet looking for issues. I love a reliable engine and don't mind some hobby-like enthusiast repairs if they can be remedied without huge costs, and repeated repairs. If I have to stock up on lock solenoids and open my interior once a year to fix issues that may be too annoying. If I can know all the problem spots and fox them at once for $500 or less, no big deal. Chalk that up to having a reliable engine and safety features (that I assume don't have electrical gremlins?)

Sorry if that's confusing I'm on my phone again.

JB05 said:

Nice looking TDI, but after rereading your opening post, I would have to say pass on the VW.

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That was my feeling too. It WILL be a hobby car for you. If you can pull down low 40s in the Honda, no need for the TDI.

whitedog said:

That was my feeling too. It WILL be a hobby car for you. If you can pull down low 40s in the Honda, no need for the TDI.

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Thank you
Well looks like my original idea is so far still the best. Too many suggestions against the TDI (I was expecting different on a TDI forum but I'm glad this is an honest forum. Not surprised really) Oh well. I was hoping for a break because I've been searching for an HX so long but I'll just keep searching.