2009 Jetta Sportwagon TDI, P0087, Fuel rail/system pressure too low

cumminsfromthecold

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Location
Arcata, CA
TDI
'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab, '13 Jetta Wagon
2009 Jetta Sportwagon TDI is reading P0087 after 30,000 miles on straight biodiesel.

What's going on?

I've got my ideas, but I'm no expert on cars this new.
 

cumminsfromthecold

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Location
Arcata, CA
TDI
'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab, '13 Jetta Wagon
Re. P0087, Fuel rail/system pressure too low, '09 Jetta TDI Sportwagon

"Low fuel rail pressure?"

Yes.

"hpfp check.
hpfp sensor check."

Here, you lost me. I'm guessing High Pressure Fuel Pump? Is this the injector pump?

HPFP sensor check probably in order - where is it?

"Check for metal specs in fuel filter and screen."

Thanks, good idea.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Are you still under warranty? If so, DO NOT tell the dealer you have been running straight Biodiesel. I assume that you are aware that VW recommends no more than 5% BioDiesel in a 2009+ TDI. If you are lucky, it is not an HPFP failure (it is still running?), but it could be a pressure sensor or pressure valve failing. Do as stated above and open up the fuel filter and look for little pieces of metal (this could indicate an HPFP failure).

Good Luck

Don
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
"Low fuel rail pressure?"

Here, you lost me. I'm guessing High Pressure Fuel Pump? Is this the injector pump?

HPFP sensor check probably in order - where is it?

"Check for metal specs in fuel filter and screen."

Thanks, good idea.
2009+ TDIs do not have "normal" injection pumps. It is a "common rail" fuel system. There is a High Pressure pump that feeds a "fuel rail" that all of the injectors are attached to. At the end of this rail you will find a pressure regulator and a fuel line that returns unused fuel to the HPFP. I would suggest you do a search and find the 2.0L Common rail engine self training manual - there are threads and links to it here. Do some reading. The new CR diesels are not your father's diesel engines - they are high tech computer controlled devices.

Have Fun!

Don

[edit] find any post by "manual_tranny" - he has a link to the self study course in his signature - try this one - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3324444&postcount=5
 
Last edited:

Fixmy59bug

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, NV
TDI
2015 Passat TDI SE
Oh boy, I hope you haven't been running straight B100 biodiesel...

There have been a few experiments with B100 and it really gummed up the works.

Straight Biodiesel can not take the pressure that the CR is pressurized to. It is possible that your fuel system is partially gummed up (for lack of a professional term) due to the Biodiesel.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
A better check might be to pull the fuel quantity regulator on the hpfp and check for metal there. You could have small metal particulates in the fuel filter and still be okay. Metal in the fuel quantity regulator......not so good.

dweisel
 

cumminsfromthecold

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Location
Arcata, CA
TDI
'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab, '13 Jetta Wagon
Metal in the fuel quantity adjuster

Thanks all - what would cause metal to be in the fuel filter or fuel quantity adjuster?

Yeah, it's B99.9, with D2 rarely blended in - just a mad experiment of sorts. Maybe an expensive one, but hey, it's just money.

More importantly, how can I fix this and get the '09 running on B99.9?
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Specks are from the hpfp eating itself. Bio isn't approved for these engines and there probably is nothing you can do to make it so. Are you under warranty still?
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Thanks all - what would cause metal to be in the fuel filter or fuel quantity adjuster?
Metal particles would be an indicator that the hpfp is wearing or failing. Aluminum particles would be from wear in the bore. Ferrous metal would definately be signs of failure as that would be coming from the cam or roller within the hpfp. If you're lucky,maybe the Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve N276 or the Fuel Pressure Sensor is bad. These are located on the ends of the rail. Check for metal first' IF no metal is found hopefully its one of the parts at the end of the rail.


dweisel
 

Mike_V

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
I assume the car is the one referred to in this thread?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=309180

Looks like this might be going the way of previous CR B100 experiments :( I can't offer any advice for the repair, but I hope what you find will give us some more insight into how the CR engines respond to biodiesel.

Straight Biodiesel can not take the pressure that the CR is pressurized to. It is possible that your fuel system is partially gummed up (for lack of a professional term) due to the Biodiesel.
I know this has been discussed in the context of PD engines, but have there been any documented cases of B100 damage to the fuel injection system in a CR engine? My impression from forum browsing was that the DPF and oil dilution is a larger problem for the CR platform.
 

cumminsfromthecold

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Location
Arcata, CA
TDI
'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab, '13 Jetta Wagon
bioDiesel in Common Rail TDIs

Mike V, you got it. Figures - as soon as I say something, something happens. My friend has the right attitude about it all, though. Screw the warranty! B100! VW engineers, c'mon!

Context - the car simply had P0087 come up 3 times, each time shortly after the codes were reset by the dealer from whom he's leasing the thing. Glowplug light also came on with these CELs - interesting. The car's performance is unchanged, though.

I am very interested in why the CR TDI can't handle bio-D. I have heard speculation regarding acidity/pH, compressable-ness of bio-D, viscosity concerns, and more, but no insight from a fluid mechanics or bio-D expert. I'm going to ask around some more, and yes, I'll post answers I get.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Your freind is playing with an $8k to $10k repair to replace the fuel system. May have to do the exhaust as well. I'm surprised his dealer isn't disowning him and voiding his warranty for bio use. On a leased car no less.
 

cumminsfromthecold

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Location
Arcata, CA
TDI
'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab, '13 Jetta Wagon
B100, 2009 tdi

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/584106403/m/5511015272/p/1
This thread is entitled "B100 Does Not work in 2009 Jetta TDI." It's a great read (lengthy). Thanks for mentioning it, Mike_V.

D'oh!

Yeah, it could prove an expensive gamble. I just like accurate information, and VW dealerships too seldom pinpoint what's really going on, what really caused the CEL, in my experience.
 

Mike_V

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Do you guys have access to VCDS to scan/clear codes yourself, or were you getting this code from a generic reader (or the dealer)? Just wondering whether there might be any other codes to provide clues.

Interestingly, in the Chevron presentation linked in that Infopop thread (post http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/584106403/m/5511015272?r=40810249#40810249), there is no direct mention of concerns about B100 damage to the fuel system - it refers to B100's properties producing a different injected droplet size distribution, but (at least in the text, maybe when speaking he said something else) the ensuing concern is the consequences of fuel dilution during post-injection. The presentation does mention that fuel needs to be extremely clean for CR engines, which of course could be an issue for B100 (but also is for US D2).

In that same post, Neurot says that the engine is B100 compatible, the emissions systems are the problem. I don't know whether this is pure speculation on his part (obviously he is inclined toward B100 optimism) or something he received some corroboration on from Chevron.

Lightflyer, if you're referring to the consequences of HPFP failure, I don't offhand see a reason to assume that B100 use necessarily increases the likelihood of HPFP failure - B100 is a high-lubricity fuel, and while it might cause any of number of problems for the precision-engineering fueling system, it's not obvious that the HPFP will be the first thing to go, or that it will fail in the same way as we've seen for D2. While (for example) B100-related damage to the fuel injectors wouldn't be surprising and will be expensive to fix, it still will be a cheaper repair than a failure that sends metal fragments throughout the entire fueling system!

Edit for one more thought:
My friend has the right attitude about it all, though. Screw the warranty! B100! VW engineers, c'mon!
I think the "right attitude" towards an experiment like this needs to include careful monitoring of the car. Especially given the results of prior experiments, your friend really should have been doing UOA's and adjusting oil change intervals accordingly - if he's going to keep running B100 he should start now! If he's willing to take these kind of risks, the community benefits (and biodiesel use is promoted) much more by learning how frequent oil changes need be, or the limits of what bio percentages are acceptable, rather than just finding out "B100 broke his car after X miles."
 
Last edited:

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
My comment was made due to this being done to a lease car that isn't really his to experiment with. I would imagine if they found out they would ask VW what needs to be done to correct it. I would expect them to say complete fuel system replacement and maybe some cats and dpf as well. Nothing to do with the technical aspects of bio. Misfueling the car probably violates the lease agreement and he would be liable for the damages.
 

Mike_V

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Fair point, "I am the warranty" doesn't work when it isn't your car - I wouldn't want to be the buyer after this lease is up! I'd say anybody who wants to push forth our knowledge of alternative fuels for the CR should be financially prepared for the possibility of complete engine annihilation.
 

conejo_a_cuatro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Location
Bryn Mawr, PA
TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
Seriously, folks, how many people on this board with failed HPFP's were using B99? This may be the only car. I think it's well established that use of b99 is a bad idea on CR TDI's because of the oil dilution issues, but folks are starting to sound like VW dealers, "if the window doesn't roll down, it's because he used b99". If it's the HPFP, there is no guarantee at all that it had anything to do with biodiesel, more likely, it's simply a faulty design. That said, I'd have stuck with the ALH if I was him. Now, VW will most certainly deny the claim if they find b99 in the works, but what VW does, and what is reality, are two very different things.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
No one has said bio caused the hpfp to fail. But it may have failed anyway. With the codes presented it only makes sense to check it and the things associated with it.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
There have been a few experiments with B100 and it really gummed up the works.

Straight Biodiesel can not take the pressure that the CR is pressurized to. It is possible that your fuel system is partially gummed up (for lack of a professional term) due to the Biodiesel.
I was not aware of this issue with Bio. I was under the impression that the main problem with running B100 (or anything over B20) was oil dilution (contamination) with fuel. Do you have a source of more information on this pressure issue? I am not doubting your word - just seeking more info.

Thanks

Don
 

conejo_a_cuatro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Location
Bryn Mawr, PA
TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
Actually, Fixmy59 implied it, so I am responding to a particular comment. That said, of course the HPFP should be checked. It's a bad situation, though, because if it failed, even if it had nothing to do with b99, VW will call foul and pay for nothing. Then again, they seem to try the same with several failed HPFP's that never saw above b5.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Fixmy59bug said nothing relating to the hpfp. I didn't get that implication from his post at all. They are also entirely within their rights to void his warranty for misfueling as he intentionally put something in that was explicitly excluded. I am no big defender of VW, but if you intentionally do something to the car that is explicitly forbidden, you are on your own. Not to mention the total irresponsibility of doing it to a lease car that you don't even own. Even bragging about it. If it were me I would refuse to honor the warranty, cancel the lease and hold him responsible for all repairs to put the car right again.

Through all of this I haven't said or implied the hpfp is the failure or that bio caused it. I wouldn't lay this one at VW's feet though as the bad guy.
 

donDavide

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Location
Severna Park, Maryland USA
TDI
2003 Jetta ;2006 Golf; 2015 Jetta S
Fixmy59bug said nothing relating to the hpfp. I didn't get that implication from his post at all. They are also entirely within their rights to void his warranty for misfueling as he intentionally put something in that was explicitly excluded. I am no big defender of VW, but if you intentionally do something to the car that is explicitly forbidden, you are on your own. Not to mention the total irresponsibility of doing it to a lease car that you don't even own. Even bragging about it. If it were me I would refuse to honor the warranty, cancel the lease and hold him responsible for all repairs to put the car right again.

Through all of this I haven't said or implied the hpfp is the failure or that bio caused it. I wouldn't lay this one at VW's feet though as the bad guy.
I agree. To use motor oil as an example, look how many people waited until after the warranty period to change the type/brand oil even though it was better ( I am not saying B99-100) is better here) Warranty forbids it, yet those those that think they are saving the world still go and do there own thing. I guess it didn't work out so well did it?
 

conejo_a_cuatro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Location
Bryn Mawr, PA
TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
Hey man, whatever. I hope you're right, and they do repair it, for the OP's sake. I think that's exceedingly unlikely, but here's to baseless optimism.
 

cumminsfromthecold

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Location
Arcata, CA
TDI
'84 Toyota 1Z 4WD x-cab, '13 Jetta Wagon
Mike V - "Do you guys have access to VCDS to scan/clear codes yourself, or were you getting this code from a generic reader (or the dealer)?"

Dealer read the codes.

"Just wondering whether there might be any other codes to provide clues."

I know little more now but will know more soon.

B99.9 cleanliness is indeed an issue. I know the producer in this case, his ASTM D6751 spec production methods, and then my buddy's bulk storage methods some 80 miles away, the latter of which get an 8 out of 10. My personal biodiesel storage is comprehensive and closely maintained and monitored, but that's me. Always filter biodiesel to 2-15 microns, IMHO. 30m is conventional.

"[...] the ensuing concern is the consequences of fuel dilution during post-injection."

Correct, from what I have read.

"I think the "right attitude" towards an experiment like this needs to include careful monitoring of the car. Especially given the results of prior experiments, your friend really should have been doing UOA's and adjusting oil change intervals accordingly - if he's going to keep running B100 he should start now! If he's willing to take these kind of risks, the community benefits (and biodiesel use is promoted) much more by learning how frequent oil changes need be, or the limits of what bio percentages are acceptable, rather than just finding out "B100 broke his car after X miles."

No disagreement there.

"I'd say anybody who wants to push forth our knowledge of alternative fuels for the CR should be financially prepared for the possibility of complete engine annihilation."

And that's my friend (agree or disagree). :) Failure is a great teacher.

Lightflyer 1
"I would expect them to say complete fuel system replacement and maybe some cats and dpf as well. Nothing to do with the technical aspects of bio. Misfueling the car probably violates the lease agreement and he would be liable for the damages."

This is what he acknowledges and expects.

conejo a cuatro
"...VW dealers, "if the window doesn't roll down, it's because he used b99".

Because this also our experience (and countless friends' and acquaintances' experiences) with VW dealers, there's that real frustration with their refusal to pinpoint the problem. They shoot off and say, "Replace the fuel system!" Really? Is that actually necessary? If so, you should be able to explain. Like Mike V said, VW should name the problem(s) as would anyone esteeming quality and appropriately documenting an experiment.

Blanket statements/solutions like VW's proposing in this case lack the insights needed to advance understanding of bio-D in new CR Diesels. Don't they want to know, too? How many real world experiments -- and their lessons -- are dismissed to expedite warranty claims, pay a skilled mechanic less, or make some money off overpriced dealer parts?

Lightflyer
"They are also entirely within their rights to void his warranty for misfueling as he intentionally put something in that was explicitly excluded. I am no big defender of VW, but if you intentionally do something to the car that is explicitly forbidden, you are on your own. Not to mention the total irresponsibility of doing it to a lease car that you don't even own...."

Agreed, though I wouldn't call it irresponsibility. This guy is responsible, wants to keep the car, wants to press the issue with VW and higher biodiesel blends (again, I don't care if you agree with his methods or not, so no need to post about it), and he owns what he's doing.

"Even bragging about it."

Wrong, Lightflyer. Please cite the bragging you claim. I am writing this for a friend and I happen to like his approach and the responsibility he's taking (which I knew he'd take when he bought the car new).

"If it were me I would refuse to honor the warranty, cancel the lease and hold him responsible for all repairs to put the car right again."

Very easily what could happen, which is in fact why I asked for a solution right up front - if he redoes the fuel system,

If it were me, I'd do the above and move, in some way, toward figuring out
how he can burn B99.9. That's what a product and customer satisfaction-oriented dealer would do. B99.9 is the point here. Chevron's OLOA 55501 oil would minimize (or could eliminate?) the oil dilution issue. Then it's about the DPF and CAT and some biodiesel compatibility with fuel system components.

Wish I had the fuel system info from VW on the '09 TDI and any info they have on neat biodiesel testing in it. It's possible, though, that they never did any serious testing of B99.9 biodiesel on an '09 gen TDI.

And backing up a step, it's important to add that we recognize CARB as a culprit (not the culprit, but a culprit) in making such a sweet ride B99.9 incompatible.
 

Mike_V

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Blanket statements/solutions like VW's proposing in this case lack the insights needed to advance understanding of bio-D in new CR Diesels. Don't they want to know, too? . . . If it were me, I'd do the above and move, in some way, toward figuring out
how he can burn B99.9. That's what a product and customer satisfaction-oriented dealer would do. B99.9 is the point here.
Wishful thinking aside, the reality is the dealer is not going to do that, especially on a leased car that they own and hope to sell after the lease is up. If your friend is really willing to invest in this, he should buy the car and stop taking it to the dealer, because all they are going to tell him is to stop burning B100. Try to find a mechanic sympathetic to your cause who can work on CR engines, or try to learn yourselves, only take it to the dealer for non-fuel-system warranty fixes, and then you can do whatever you want to it in pursuit of greener fuel. And then let us know what you find!

One unfortunate aspect of Neurot's experiment is that he limited his scope to "can a consumer have a normal, trouble-free new car experience with a 2009 TDI and B100?" Issues like the maximum possible bio percentage, UOA-backed oil change strategies, the compatibility of B100 with the engine if the DPF is disabled (illegal for on-road use, of course) etc. weren't of interest to him - once the car started showing problems, he called it quits. Still unanswered is "can a motivated, involved consumer find a way to run B-something-high on a CR," which is in many ways a more interesting question, albeit only for a relatively small group of enthusiasts.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Mike V, you got it. Figures - as soon as I say something, something happens. My friend has the right attitude about it all, though. Screw the warranty! B100! VW engineers, c'mon!
I took this to be bragging about it. They may be your words though and I may have interpreted wrong. In your post you also said he owns what he is doing, but you also said he is in a leased car. If it is leased he doesn't own it and shouldn't be attempting it in that car. He should have bought it out right if he wanted to do testing and push the issue.
 
Top