Help me pick my next diesel purchase

CALL911

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I'm trying to decide what SUV would be best between the Audi Q7 diesel, the Porsche Cayenne Diesel, and the BMW X5 diesel. And I'll throw the gasser in there as well: the newer Mazda CX-9.

All the diesel models I'm looking at are in the 2014-2015 range. The CX-9 years I'm looking at are the 2017 and 2018.

The price on them are all about the same (roughly $30k). I want the car for logevity, being able to tow at least 5500 lbs, and most important, being RELIABLE.

Standard lack of these cars by the masses in the US means there's not a lot of reviews out there on these minus the Mazda.

I have driven the CX-9 and I did like it, however it won't get quite the MPG that the diesels get and I don't believe it will last as long being a gasser.

The Porsche Cayenne: the earlier models were plagued with problems (as well as the VW Touareg and why it's not on this list). In 2014, they seemed to fix many of them while the VW equivelant did not. I like the one the most for handling and looks, but want to be sure all those high dollar Porsche stamped parts aren't going to come and bite me in the but down the road if the reliability isn't as good as I have researched.

The BMW X5D has got some really good reviews for 2014 and 2015. It has some killer power all while getting the best highway MPG out of all of them at 32. I just would like any more info anyone can chime in with as I really haven't heard much past guys who bought theirs new and only put on 15k-20k worth of miles.

The Audi I probably like the least just because of its looks, but I really also know the least about this one as it's the only one I have not driven out of the rest of them.
 

PeteZ06

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In terms of reliability I would rank them..
Audi
BMW
Porsche

Looks.. obviously opinionated..
BMW
Porsche
Audi

Not sure if you're going to get it tuned or start pulling off emission stuff.. but I'd look into costs and availability of a downpipe if you are. I know theres a downpipe for the X5D, not sure about the other two.

The reason I went with a 535D vs a A6 TDI or E250 Bluetec was for the inline 6 engine.. super smooth and reliable!!

Good luck with whatever you decide on!
 

CALL911

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Pete, are those ranked in order of reliability based off generalizations of the manufacturer? Or for the specific years of the vehicles I chose for both?

If it's in general, I would agree with you. Specifically each model changed greatly in 2014 though and with it each had different reliability rates and I just want to get my facts straight from people with experience with them.

I had not planned on getting a tune. Most of these have a TON more power than I need and from.my experience even though they claim an increase in efficiency, it rarely happens and instead it's an increase in performance only.

Truman, I believe all these outside of the Mazda are in line 6 cylinders.
 

CALL911

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Another big missing piece of the puzzle I can't seem to find is their timing belt interval. This can and likely is going to be expensive so it would be nice to know when they are due.
 

PeteZ06

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Another big missing piece of the puzzle I can't seem to find is their timing belt interval. This can and likely is going to be expensive so it would be nice to know when they are due.
I'm quite certain all those have chains... I know my 535D does.
 

CALL911

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I'm quite certain all those have chains... I know my 535D does.
Oh. I don't know if I have ever owned a car with chains instead if belts. Does this mean they don't need to be serviced I am assuming? If so, that would be nice
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
The VAG engine is a V6.

They will all be expensive to maintain.

I would throw the diesel Grand Cherokee into your search lot, as well as the M-class.
 

turbobrick240

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I'd go for the BMW. The Mazda would likely be the most reliable and cheapest to maintain, but doesn't have the 5k# tow rating you want.
 

CALL911

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The VAG engine is a V6.

They will all be expensive to maintain.

I would throw the diesel Grand Cherokee into your search lot, as well as the M-class.
The BMW in the years I am looking at is a 3.0 inline 6
Looks like you are correct that the Audi is the 3.0 V6 same with the Porsche.

Thanks for the tip oilhammer!

The Cherokee does not hold a good maintenance record. I drove the M-class and I actually love them, but the wife hated them, and they don't have a tow rating (at least in any of the years we looked at), so the Benz is out.

I'd go for the BMW. The Mazda would likely be the most reliable and cheapest to maintain, but doesn't have the 5k# tow rating you want.
Thanks for the inpit turbobrick!

UPDATE:

I have now test driven all the models as of today. So far, I like driving the Mazda the least, and enjoy driving the Porsche the most. But there are other factors beyond enjoyment I have to consider for this one. I guess my big thing is reliability. For the 2014 and newer vehicles outside the Mazda, I have spoke to each companies service center, and they all have said that for those years diesels that they don't see much. This is likely due to the fact 2014 was only 4 years ago, and many have not put many miles on them yet so a lot is unknown so far. But good to know what I have seen is that each of these seem to be less maintenance intense than the previous years (Porsche especially). This being said, I get the feeling that the BMW (outside the Mazda) will likely cost me the least in maintenance.

So, the X5d. This one probably impressed me the most as far as mileage goes. I was averaging on the highway 38 MPG! This was at 65 and 70 on a level highway for an 8 mile stretch both ways. None of the others came close to this. Unfortunately, I hated the layout inside as far as the dash goes for the BMW. It looked the same as all BMW's look. It rode very smooth and had plenty of torque.

The Audi Q7. I will admit after driving this one that I was more impressed with it. I still dont care for the looks of it, but the interior did look much better and was more comfortable than the BMW. It was also the most quiet out of all of them to drive.

Right now, I am leaning towards the BMW. It has the inline 3.0. It has by far the best MPG, and offers the third row seating that the Mrs wants (all do except for the Porsche). I think the next step will be letting the wife take them for a drive and see how she likes them.

Thanks for all the input everyone! If anyone has anything else to add, feel free to do so.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Just FYI, the T'reg, the Q7, and the Cayenne all roll on the same platform, and use the same engine. The Porsche version gets a slight tweak, +10hp I think, and the Audi has a stretched wheelbase, which gives it more rear seat room.

The earlier GC uses the same MB V6 engine as MB used in many models. The later ones use a VM Motori engine (after Fiat). The MB is probably a better engine, lots of half million mile Sprinters running around.

The CX9 was all new for 2016, so not much long term track record on those. The previous versions were reskinned Fords.

Not sure what you mean about "no tow rating", as they sell trailer hitches at the MB dealer, genuine accessory type, that integrate into the car, same as the others. I suspect it is in the 5k range.

Statistically, as well as from my experience, one of the full-framed Japanese-assembled Toyota/Lexus SUVs with the 4.7L V8 is going to be more reliable than ANY of the above. I'd bet my paycheck on a well cared for 2005 GX470 with 200k miles on it before the others. But boy will it drink some fuel, and not an especially nice ride what with the live rear axle. But reliable it will be, and it'll drag 5k pounds around without breaking a sweat.
 
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PeteZ06

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The VAG engine is a V6.

They will all be expensive to maintain.

I would throw the diesel Grand Cherokee into your search lot, as well as the M-class.

Interesting comment.

Can you further explain how they all will be expensive to maintain?

I just did a oil change on my 535D with premium synthetic oil and with filter it ran me $80... oil changes are every 20K miles. And it doesn't seem like Im due for any routine maintenance for at least another 20K miles.
 

CALL911

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Oilhammer, thanks again for the info. I won't question your words of wisdom, but I will say that PeteZ06 is likely on to something. I am picking these years specifically because of their reliability compared to previous years. I do know that the BMW especially for the 2014-2018 models seems to he exceptionally reliable from doing what research I have.

The CX-9 is not rated to tow what I want (5500 lbs). It does have a tow rating, but it's only 3500 lbs. Honestly I am not planning on towing regularly, however when I do need to tow, I would like the ability to do so.

The fuel economy and reliability are much more important to me. At almost 40 MPG I'm gonna save a ton at the fuel pump compared to a gas guzzling V8 from a Lexus.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
"Reliability" is not the same as "low cost of operation".

Normal service parts will cost more, has nothing at all to do with how reliable something is. My Golf is very reliable, but it still costs double for an oil change vs. a comparable year Civic.

The reward is, I'd rather drive a Golf than a Civic. I have no problem spending more, I am getting more, but I am under no delusion that I am somehow saving money. The costs of operation become more palatable the longer the vehicle gets kept in service. Because the biggest cost, the initial purchase, gets pushed away and the money recovers. I do not understand, nor will I ever, grasp the logic behind buying a new car every ~3-5 years and trading it off, but lots of people do this. I suppose if you have all your other finances in good order (your home, your retirement, whatever care any children you may have), and you are happy, then go for it. Far too many people live above their means.

So if I have to explain to you why a BMW, ANY BMW, is a higher cost of ownership than many other makes, I really do not know what to say. But I have been around cars in a professional manner since I was a teenager, I've never known it to be any different. I've even done a tour of duty at a dealership that sold BMWs.

But hey, don't think I am trying to talk you out of anything... I'm just as guilty. I have a driveway full of Volkswagens and one Mercedes-Benz. ;)
 

CALL911

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I hear what you are saying for sure. I could get a gas guzzling Lexus with 200k on the clock for cheaper for sure, and it might only cost me big dividens at the gas pump vs parts. Also, I don't buy things to sell just a few years down the road either. Most cars I buy, I drive until the wheels are ready to fall off and then sell it while they are still running (same thing I will do for this SUV I plan on purchasing).

Difference in fuel economy can make a significant difference though. If I got that X5D and averaged 35 MPG, over 100,000 miles with current fuel prices, I would spend roughly $9400 in fuel. For a premium fuel guzzling Lexus averaging 15 MPG for that same 100,000 miles I would have over $22,200 in fuel prices. From talking with the senior service manager at the local BMW dealer, the previous generation BMW's (which are still reliable but not nearly as much as the newer ones) were not known for issues until beyond 100,000 miles. And then, it was replacing emmision sensors like EGR and NOX. All together, getting them replaced at the stealership, all those together cost about $3,000 (parts and labor). That difference after 100,000 miles still doesn't come close to just the difference in fuel price between the two (this is also assuming zero issues with the Lexus).

I'm not new to the car game either. I had a 1983 BMW 633 CSI, and am on my 3rd VW and have also owned a Honda Civic. I do get the parts are more. But the reliability of the newer models I am looking at are not known (that I have seen at least) to have multiple maintenance issues like some of my older VW's and old Bimmer did.

I am in the research phase for this car right now for a purchase somewhere in the 6 months to a year time frame. And yes, I am in a financial situation where I can comfortably afford this. I'm sure I could get by buying a used cheap Kia SUV, but I WOULD rather spend more to get more for this one. From the start of this thread I have learned a bit and that was it's intent as I did not want to be surprised by unexpected things that came along the way. With the time frame I have to make this purchase, it gives me plenty of time to keep researching to be sure this purchase will be right for me.
 
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jck66

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If I may interject here, I would like to humbly suggest that expecting to average 35 mpg from a BMW X5D is optimistic, maybe by as much as 10 mpg. I'm barely squeaking out 35 mpg from a sedan with essentially the same drivetrain as the X5, and this is with a light foot and generous use of Eco mode. So I'd recommend not taking so much fuel savings into account when doing your calculations. You can see what other X5 (and Q7/Cayenne) drivers are reporting on the fuelly and fueleconomy.gov websites for reference.
 

CALL911

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If I may interject here, I would like to humbly suggest that expecting to average 35 mpg from a BMW X5D is optimistic, maybe by as much as 10 mpg. I'm barely squeaking out 35 mpg from a sedan with essentially the same drivetrain as the X5, and this is with a light foot and generous use of Eco mode. So I'd recommend not taking so much fuel savings into account when doing your calculations. You can see what other X5 (and Q7/Cayenne) drivers are reporting on the fuelly and fueleconomy.gov websites for reference.

Well, it depends. My driving is extended highway for an hour straight at highway speeds and almost no traffic or stops. I currently average 53 MPG in my Golf. This is not my best but my average during a fill up. This vehicle will be used for me for similar usage, so highway MPG is a big deal and would reflect the average MPG for me.

Driving the newer X5D yesterday, I was averaging 38-40 MPG on the highway. I was impressed. The sales rep has a customer that has owned one since 2014 and drives a lot, and they still average 38+ on the highway.
 
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CALL911

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I guess to put thing in perspective, these are the vehicles I am looking at to fit my criterea of something that does decent on fuel, while being able to tow at least 5500 lbs and something that's not going to be in the shop all the time or cost me big time when it comes to maintenance. I do value all the input I have received by members such as oilhammer who's word holds a lot of experience.
 

KITEWAGON

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Driving the newer X5D yesterday, I was averaging 38-40 MPG on the highway. I was impressed. The sales rep has a customer that has owned one since 2014 and drives a lot, and they still average 38+ on the highway.
I don't believe that mileage. I believe that the computer might have told you that, but I don't believe you'd ever see 38 mpg on a tank even if it was all highway. And call me crazy, but I don't believe the guy trying to sell you a car either. Now you have to buy one and prove me wrong.
 

PeteZ06

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The best I've seen in my 535D on highway was 37-38 range.. thats actual calculation at the pump... how many miles I drove and how many gallons I had to refill with.

The X5 is much heavier and much less aerodynamic.. I too have a hard time believing its hitting 38mpg at highway speeds.

I'm averaging 30 mpg with a pretty heavy foot.. 50/50 city/highway driving.
 

CALL911

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It was based upon 2 different on board MPG calculators on my test drive. I don't know how accurate but I do have a hard time believing they are 10+ MPG off. I'll look into it more.

The hard part is most X5's sold are gassers not diesels. Finding specific info on the X5D is hard. Finding info on only 2014-2018 X5D's is harder.

I may join a BMW forum to try and get some more info from actual drivers. I do hope to prove you wrong but I dont know about having to buy the car to do it, lol. I do believe that it still is more efficient compared to the others even if it does not get 38 MPG, so regardless this still is my front runner as of now.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
You are best to compare to a similar vehicle with the gasoline engine. No doubt a diesel X5 will net better fuel economy than the gasoline version. But a gasoline X3 will probably come pretty close under certain situations.

As much improvement as there has been made with gasoline engines' fuel efficiency, the diesel is still going to be better. Just the right now, the NOx issue is forcing the diesels to use more fuel than they otherwise normally would, while the gassers are allowed to spew much more other stuff out the tail pipe. So they've banned our 50 MPG TDIs, because they are "dirty", but you can buy as many 15 MPG Toyota Tundras as you like. Those are perfectly fine. Go figure. :rolleyes:
 

CALL911

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Well, the X3 gasser is quoted at 23 city, and 30 highway. This is similar to the sticker MPG of the X5 diesel. However the dealer told me from their customers experience, and I saw also while driving the diesel that it got much better than 30 MPG on the highway. Again, this was just my experience from a quick test drive and not experience from driving it for extended periods of time with multiple fill ups.

I joined a BMW forum to reach out to see what actual X535d owners are seeing as far as maintenance and fuel economy goes.
 

clacker

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One big problem with your assumption in buying one of those mentioned SUV's. Reliability. You will NEVER drive the wheels off it and be happy. The cost of ownership on them at the 8 year mark and on just goes nuts and everyone dumps them. I know the older X5D are not very reliable. Injectors for one. There was also talk of head gasket issues on the first round of the inline six diesel here. Keeping the emissions in working order is very costly and few actually know how to fix them without randomly replacing expensive parts. I am 7 years into a 2008 Mercedes R320. Love it but no one of sound mind would keep it and put up with the servicing costs (I fix it myself and go through great lengths to get parts out of the US for it as parts are rare and expensive).
Any of them will tow just fine. My R320 is rated for 3500 but 5000 is easy, it has the power and it has the brakes. Unibody would be the limiting factor as I suspect with most SUV's. I used my R320 for everything family trips for 5 weeks, towing cars and trailers, landscaping my property and finally went and got a truck. The truck is so much more reliable and easy to work on it is crazy (2005 Ram 2500 cummins, 400k miles). I do not drive the R anymore now that I have a truck, no time to fix it!

My vote the Mazda. It'll last ten years fine and do what you 99% of the time, and anyone can fix it and cheaply at that. The others will just hurt and hurt and hurt every time something goes wrong. Took me 4 Mercedes dealerships to solve a tire wear issue and proper alignment...
 

CALL911

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One big problem with your assumption in buying one of those mentioned SUV's. Reliability. You will NEVER drive the wheels off it and be happy. The cost of ownership on them at the 8 year mark and on just goes nuts and everyone dumps them. I know the older X5D are not very reliable. Injectors for one. There was also talk of head gasket issues on the first round of the inline six diesel here. Keeping the emissions in working order is very costly and few actually know how to fix them without randomly replacing expensive parts. I am 7 years into a 2008 Mercedes R320. Love it but no one of sound mind would keep it and put up with the servicing costs (I fix it myself and go through great lengths to get parts out of the US for it as parts are rare and expensive).
Any of them will tow just fine. My R320 is rated for 3500 but 5000 is easy, it has the power and it has the brakes. Unibody would be the limiting factor as I suspect with most SUV's. I used my R320 for everything family trips for 5 weeks, towing cars and trailers, landscaping my property and finally went and got a truck. The truck is so much more reliable and easy to work on it is crazy (2005 Ram 2500 cummins, 400k miles). I do not drive the R anymore now that I have a truck, no time to fix it!

My vote the Mazda. It'll last ten years fine and do what you 99% of the time, and anyone can fix it and cheaply at that. The others will just hurt and hurt and hurt every time something goes wrong. Took me 4 Mercedes dealerships to solve a tire wear issue and proper alignment...
Thanks for your input. I'm sorry you seem to have had bad luck. I am still getting more info, and it's not simple given that most of these are gassers and when you look at websites for common issues they don't list the diesel models.

From what I have gathered, you are correct that most of the previous generation X5 35d's had issues relating mostly to emmissions. Many have found that by deleting their EGR and others have nearly eliminated their problems. But those years also don't seem to get the mileage that the 2014-2018 models get.

I think the Mazda option is out for me, mostly becuase it won't tow what I need it to. Everything else I have seen that tows gets absolutely horrible mileage. At best low 20's on the highway. I would not tow often, so even though it's important to me, I'm not sure I would be willing to sacrifice the much greater fuel price it's going to cost me.

I have some time. I'll keep researching, and the cars will age a little more where there may be more data on the 14-18 models I am looking at.

So far though I have found a few people chime in. One gets 30 MPG average in his 17 X5 diesel. But he only drives in the city. The other has done highway runs and gets 38-40 MPG, so the little data I have got does support what the dealer said and what I saw on my test drive. Pretty impressive!

I'm still leaning towards the X5 35d. This is a really nice vehicle that seems so far not to need anything, at least yet for those that have owned them, and the mileage and performance seems to be impressive! We will see what more time and research bring...
 

tikal

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I think the key world, as said by others, is "cost of ownership" through a certain amount of time. This can be a complex equation to solve in detail so you probably have to do a very `ball park` calculation. In my view component failure rates (reliability), cost of repairs, fuel costs, access to dependable and skillful mechanics are some of the important factors to consider in you cost/benefit analysis.

Int terms of fuel economy getting an average MPG with as many miles/vehicles as possible would give you the best expected fuel economy. As an example for the '2015 BMW X5 3.0L L6 Diesel' Fuelly.come shows 15 vehicles, 945 fuel-ups and 396,290 miles with an average MPG of 25.07.

Fascinating problem to solve indeed :)
 
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CALL911

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Well, for sure I am first not looking for the cheapest vehicle overall here. If so, I could probably find some old Toyota RAV4 or something on the used market for cheap that would probably last me a long time.

I am looking for a higher end luxury car, and I know that it will come with an added cost over the other less expensive options. However, it also comes with the added comfort and luxury I am after. Now, from what I have gathered for this particular car, it does seem to be fairly reliable.

As you pointed out, the more cars I could get info on the better. I think an average of 25.07 is probably not all that horrible considering the variables of people towing, driving in winter, and I know many drive many more miles in town than I would ever do. It does seem unless the people I have asked on the Bimmer forums are lying that for more highway drivning like I plan on doing that mid to sometimes upper 30's on the highway are not uncommon. Compared to the other options I have looked at, this is a bit better. For how much I drive, fuel price will likely be one of the larger expenses.

I will add that current diesel prices in my area are almost a full dollar more than gas. This will run the price per mile up a bit for sure and if it's still continuing on this trend when I am ready to buy, I may strongly reconsider the CX-9 and how important the towing actually is to me.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I have always felt that the highest fuel economy figures are reported by those that are trying to get the highest fuel economy. Not necessarily by people who are just "driving the car" and are content knowing that pretty much however they drive it, it will still get "good" and definitely better than the gasoline equivalent especially when not really trying.
 

CALL911

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I have always felt that the highest fuel economy figures are reported by those that are trying to get the highest fuel economy. Not necessarily by people who are just "driving the car" and are content knowing that pretty much however they drive it, it will still get "good" and definitely better than the gasoline equivalent especially when not really trying.
I concour!
 

ssamalin

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My E250BT gets 35 combined, and that could easily be beat since I chose non-eco tires (General Altimax), have a full size wheel in my trunk, drive an average of 80 on a hilly 40 mile half mile climb and in the city deal with
stop-and-go half the time. As far as luxury, if you mean big car handling and performance, it's A+. I am not tuning, all stock emissions 50 state legal. Also 4cyl, bi turbo, and if you can DIY I'd expect your maintenance and reliability to be excellent, which has been the case for my first 60k.

Towing is still a unsolved issue. I bought the harness discussed on the E250BT thread, but it has sat in my trunk. When my warranty is past I'll do the experiment. Another owner installed the hitch with no issue. The towing capacity is adequate IIRC.
 
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