04 PD died while driving/ crank no start please HELP

johnsongti

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Delaware
TDI
02 AlH Jetta
Ok so I have a 04 Jetta PD all stock with 140,000 miles. The other night on the way home it lost engine power and died on the highway. I did some research and have been checking all the common things out as im sure its fuel related and not getting any. Im at a point where im stuck and need expert TDI help so I come here.

Here is what I have checked,
*Vag-Com scan shows no codes (usually does not with a fuel prob anyway)
*Lift pump comes on and primes with correct amount of fuel.
*Fuel filter has been replaced along with the T-Fitting ontop of the fuel filter.
*I have put a inline electric fuel pump from the filter to the tandum pump and still it does the same thing cranks and sometimes starts for 2 sec then stalls.
* Glow plug light still comes on so I don't think its the 109 relay.
* took off return line on tandum pump and a little fuel will come out with cranking makes me think fuel is getting to the tandum pump ok.
* checked the actuator valve at the throttle plate (cant remember what its called at the moment but the rod is free moving and so is the other one the intake side of the intake manifold.
*Timing belt is ok with no missing cogs or incorrect tension.



OK so Im leaning toward the Tandum pump being possibly shot. Im not sure how to test this with the car not even idling so any help in that direction would help. Also the tandum pump runs from vac right? If thats the case I traced the line back to a few sensors on the firewall, could one of these be bad and causing the tandum to not pump?

I think I have covered everything I have checked, IF anyone has any incite please let me know.

Thanks,
Cris
 

johnsongti

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Delaware
TDI
02 AlH Jetta
I realize the tandem pump runs off the cam but doesn't it also rely on vacuum also to operate correctly? Also when I say it starts for 2 seconds its not a smooth start but rather a ruff running situation like its running out of fuel.
I will see What i can find out with the immobilizer though.
Thanks,
Cris
 

gforce1108

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Location
Newburgh, NY
TDI
04 Jetta GLS BEW, 14 Audi A7 V6 TDI, 13 Porsche Cayenne V6 TDI
The tandem pump is also your vacuum pump. Two separate functions in one part.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Verify in fact the intank lift pump works. Many of these fail WELL before 140,000 miles (mine quit at 46,000 miles). Remove the "IN" line to the fuel filter and place its end in a container and see if it shoots fuel for a couple of seconds as the key is turned on. If that works, I tend to lean towards a bad tandem pump.

--Nate
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
PD fuel system checks.

There is a test for the tandem pump for cranking speeds in this document.

While it does sound as if you have done some tests on the lift pump, it would not hurt to test it again.

Make a log of group 5 during cranking, and email it to me, please. Click on my name for email address.

More than one person ran for long periods with their pump hoses on the wrong connections. So verify that the out arrow has the white marked supply hose on it, and the in arrow has the blue return hose on it.
 

johnsongti

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Delaware
TDI
02 AlH Jetta
Dan,
Thanks I will make a log of group 5 and e-mail it to you tonight when I get off work. I will also check the lines to be sure they are hooked up correctly. The lift pump does squirt fuel when the key is cycled. Im thinking I will crank with the tandem pump return line off and measure the output. If im correct I will need 6.6 ml per second of cranking.
Thanks,
Cris
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
I would also suggest that you test for a worn tandem pump, by testing the ability to pump through a stationary tandem pump. You power the lift pump with a jumper to do this.

In the document I have suggested a rather arbitrary 25 ml per minute. A new tandem pump, just broken in, will allow less than 1 ml per minute through. The numbers I get from people in the club show that most of them that were having SLOW starts after sitting (taking about 30 seconds crank time or more to get it and keep it running) were getting more than 25 ml per minute leak through.

I know you do not have exactly these symptoms, but wonder if you are not having the same problem.

One 30 second cranking period, with at least a 15 minute wait for subsequent ones usually does no harm to the starters. In my experience once you get air in the tandem pump and fuel rails, it will take about that long to crank the car and have it stay running.
 

johnsongti

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Delaware
TDI
02 AlH Jetta
Update: I just replaced the Tandem pump and the car is still not running. It seems to be getting a little further then before but still wont stay running. Before it would crank and sometimes sputter for 1 to 2 seconds, but now it will try to start everytime I crank it and run for 2 to 3 seconds before just shutting off. It is also a pretty smooth start also so its like I just shut the key off when it dies. So it seems I have gotten somewhere. I am hoping its a priming issue but I really don't think so as it seems I have plenty of fuel being supplied to the Tandem pump.
Does anyone have any other suggestions as what to check or try to get this thing to stay running.

Thanks very much,
Cris
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
So now, since it is running and dying smoothly after two seconds, it really sounds as if it is an immobilizer issue.

Or an ECU immobilizer function issue.

Is your immob light coming on when you turn the key to on? Is the bulb burned out?
 

johnsongti

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Delaware
TDI
02 AlH Jetta
Dan,
Im pretty sure I looked to see if the light was coming on with the key cycle before and I think it does. I am going away this weekend but I think I will try to remove the battery cables and touch them together to fully discharge the system then reconnect when I get back. I will also try another key and will take notice of the light next time I try to start. I don't think the car is throwing any immobilizer codes though as I did a full vagcom system scan when all this started. I will report back when I have tried all these.
Thanks
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
Please log group 5 and group 4 during a start attempt and email them to me again. I will be interested in the cam to crank timing in group 4 block 4 and the rpm, fuel qty and sync in group 5.

Have someone watch the intake flapper as you try to start it. When it dies is the flap going closed? This would indicate the ECM is telling it to close, and the timing would suggest a potential problem with the immobilizer.
 

PDJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Location
Northern Virginia
TDI
'04 Jetta GLS TDI Pumpe Duce Platinum Grey w/ Leather
Did you try running the car using a clean fuel can of diesel with the feed and return lines stuck in the can? I wonder if you have a fuel line issue.

--Nate
 

edgaston83

Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Location
punxsutawney pa
TDI
2004 jetta
same thing happend to me last week in nj when i was on vacation. come to find out that the turbo froze up . i had it hauled home and took apart the piping to the inercooler n seen that my innercooler had about a half quart of oil in it yeeaaaayyy . but all i was doing was comming off an exit ramp n got back into traffic and shifted once and she fell straight on her face. i changed my fuel filter thining that was it. no go it sat their n cranked n cranked n gave a few sighns of life out ofit but would never fully start.now im on the searce to see if an 01 turbo can be used on an 04 ? any one have any ideas
 

streeker02

Veteran Member
Joined
May 12, 2008
Location
Halton Hills
TDI
2003 Golf TDI
same thing happend to me last week in nj when i was on vacation. come to find out that the turbo froze up . i had it hauled home and took apart the piping to the inercooler n seen that my innercooler had about a half quart of oil in it yeeaaaayyy . but all i was doing was comming off an exit ramp n got back into traffic and shifted once and she fell straight on her face. i changed my fuel filter thining that was it. no go it sat their n cranked n cranked n gave a few sighns of life out ofit but would never fully start.now im on the searce to see if an 01 turbo can be used on an 04 ? any one have any ideas
READ THE OTHER THREAD YOU STARTED. Plenty of smart people have given you all the advise you need. Why you are crapping on this thread, I don't know.
 

johnsongti

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Location
Delaware
TDI
02 AlH Jetta
OK, So I tried to start again with a new key and took the battery cables off and touched them together to reset everything and no go. It wont even start for a second or two most time anymore just stumbles and tries but no strong starts with a shut down. I have looked at the flapper to see if its moving but not to see if it is getting commanded to shut so I will check that out. I also unplugged the maf sensor and that did not help either so its still good. Also Dan I will log those groups and send you anther e-mail. This is really kicking my butt and im thinking Its going to be something so stupid in the end.
Thanks everyone I will go at it again today or tomorrow and report back.
Thanks,Cris
 

torino68

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Location
Virginia
TDI
04 Jetta PD
Dan,
Im pretty sure I looked to see if the light was coming on with the key cycle before and I think it does. I am going away this weekend but I think I will try to remove the battery cables and touch them together to fully discharge the system then reconnect when I get back. I will also try another key and will take notice of the light next time I try to start. I don't think the car is throwing any immobilizer codes though as I did a full vagcom system scan when all this started. I will report back when I have tried all these.
Thanks
I had a key cut to my jetta and the cip never paired....i cranked the car with the new cut key and after 2 sec engine shut it off and the theft light on dash blinked..and i tried to start again this time with the headlights on(not on but with the knob on On position...came on with the ignition)and the engine never shut off again but I had the theft light blinking...engine runned fine for the entire trip witch was about 5 miles...Weird ain't it!
 
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