Strange ALH start/shutoff issue, similar to immobilizer

Hey guys, just want to start by saying I have already read through the entire 'no start' sticky by whitedog which is very in depth, and very helpful. I have pretty much touched base with any possible issues on this problem with no luck. My car is a 2000 Jetta with the ALH TDI, 5 speed (it was swapped by a vw dealer ship, used to be auto). It is doing the usual immobilizer start/shut off , but with no immobilizer light, and no codes that stick out to me as part of the issue. It is throwing a code for the EGR - range limit exceeded, but I have the EGR/ASV deleted so the code has always been there since it was done 100k ago. The only other codes are abs sensor bad front right, and an airbag code showing signal too low. It does this at random, and weather doesn't have too much of an affect on it, just seems to do it when it wants to and when it does it, it's usually 20+ times in a row. Lately it's been getting very frequent. The weird thing - if I clear the engine codes (the only code is for the EGR) it will start/shutoff once, and then after that for the next 10+ times will start and stay running fine. After so many starts it will begin to do it again intermittently.

So far I have done:

New crank sensor
New plugin for crank sensor
Unplugged battery and touched cables together
N239 - (tried this just in case as it is still intact and plugged in, had a spare here)
Had my key checked at the local locksmith, he told me the chip was reading
Looked over some of the wiring for corrosion

I'm stumped as to what could be causing this, just figured I would post this here to see if it's something weird that someone else may have experienced. I'm starting to wonder if it's something to do with the fact that it was an automatic and swapped to a 5 speed. It seems like the swap was done well. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks

When you first put the key forward, does the immobilizer light come on briefly?

ToxicDoc said:

When you first put the key forward, does the immobilizer light come on briefly?

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Yes it does, the light is functional. I used to have issues with the immobilizer every now and again (probably every 6 months or so it would act up then go away) but it hasn't done that in a while. I have been dealing with this issue for about 3 weeks. I carry my laptop with me everywhere I go now to clear the codes with VCDS if it won't start, getting to be quite a nuisance.....

Surprised to see a VW dealership doing a transmission swap. Has it had these symptoms since the swap? Check the big ECU plug. If your EGR is physically removed, you need a tune to take care of that. But haven't heard of that shutting the car off.
I would troubleshoot/fix whatever codes are coming back.

BobnOH said:

Surprised to see a VW dealership doing a transmission swap. Has it had these symptoms since the swap? Check the big ECU plug. If your EGR is physically removed, you need a tune to take care of that. But haven't heard of that shutting the car off.
I would troubleshoot/fix whatever codes are coming back.

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I was very surprised they would swap a transmission as well, it was done before I bought the car and there was a bill in the glovebox for around $3500 I believe. That was about 7 or 8 years ago, the car has 600k now. I have put 250k on this car with not a hiccup, just regular maintenance. The EGR has been deleted for close to 100k and has caused no issues without a tune, except for keeping the check engine light on and throwing the EGR code. Only reason I deleted the EGR was to eliminate cleaning out the intake as I did it twice before. Check the big ECU plug, I will do that tonight, do they come loose?

No, they don't, interweb out of ideas.

Well I plugged the VCDS back into it today and finally showing a code, Key - signal too low. Would one assume this is actually the key causing this or should I lean more towards the ignition? I had a fella check my key at the local locksmith , he said the chip showed it was reading but he couldn't cut one. What is the most reasonable way to have a new key made and programmed for these cars?

The security part of the key is unpowered. It's a glass-encased RFID chip. So, maybe it is damaged or fell out of position (you can inspect it by taking apart your remote), or there is something wrong with the transceiver in the column.

Thanks for the input! I will inspect the key first and go from there

You'll have to disassemble the part of the key where the logo is to get at the RFID chip.

On a folding key, that means prying off the VW logo, pulling out the screw hidden under it, and then managing split the shell without things flying everywhere. There are plenty of videos on YouTube for VW Key shell replacement that can help you figure out how it all comes apart/goes together.

Well I took mine apart with no visual sign of anything being out of place or broken. I ordered a key from the dealer from my vin#. I hope no one's ever changed the ignition! Lol

The weirdest thing happened to me lastnight, which I can't seem to understand. I went to pick up my new key at the dealer , which I haven't programmed yet. After leaving there I went to the bank, shut the car off. Came back out to start it and it started acting up again. So I thought to myself I would pull the handbrake up one click to shut the head lights off and save me some battery power for cranking. As soon as I pulled the handbrake , the car would not start at all it just whirls and whirls. While turning the key, I pushed the handbrake lever down and the car started right away , and then shut down. Thinking this may have been a fluke, I tried it several times and the handbrake is indeed keeping the car from starting at all. Mind blown as to how that could happen......

We've actually seen handbrake-related bizzare electrical issues before... sometimes as "car only does this with the handbrake on/off", sometimes "handbrake is getting warm for some reason".

The root cause of weird electrical behavior related to the handbrake's position is usually grounding: the car has an unrelated grounding issue somewhere, and the handbrake cable or lever are completing the missing ground circuit (and making things work) or providing a different ground pathway (and messing things up).

So, I'd suggest a really careful examination of all the car's major grounding points: big battery cable to the transmission for a start but specifically the three grounds under the battery box (you'll have to remove the battery and battery box to find 'em) and the various grounds related to the various distribution panels on the drivers side of the car inside the car.

I suppose other possibility is that it's some strange interaction with the DRL relay... meaning the handbrake activating/de-activating the DRLs is what's causing the bizarre behaviour, not the handbrake itself. Pulling the DRL relay and seeing what happens to the symptoms would be a quick way to narrow it down.

There's always a bit of wizardry in tracking down stuff like this since we can't actually see where the electrons are going... kinda just have to do it by ruling out stuff.

Thanks for the info, it would be a great place to start. I was actually thinking the other day I should pull the battery and check the grounds again. I had cleaned them a few years ago and applied a corrosion protection after they were tightened. I have also noticed that sometimes lately when I shut the car off and get out, when I touch the door it gives me a shock ( feels like more than just a static shock ). I will spend some time on it this afternoon and see what I can come up with...

VRTn said:

I have also noticed that sometimes lately when I shut the car off and get out, when I touch the door it gives me a shock ( feels like more than just a static shock ).

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The car's battery is only 12V, and since it's a diesel there's no ignition coil to boost it up to anything else... so the good news is that you're probably just feeling the static generated by sliding out of the seat.

VW cloth seats seem to be good at that.

Stll have the code and is it? Key - signal too low could indicate re3ception. There is a short piece of wire near the fuse box the car uses as an antennae. There are threads for possible repair or boost for the thing.

BobnOH said:

Stll have the code and is it? Key - signal too low could indicate re3ception. There is a short piece of wire near the fuse box the car uses as an antennae. There are threads for possible repair or boost for the thing.

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That code has not been back since I cleared it, but it is showing another code in instruments now. Transmission control module - no communication. The car was an automatic but I've been driving it for the last 6-7 years with the 5 speed swap and had no issues with the swap.

I cleaned all the grounds this afternoon and found a few of the wires in the little fuse panel on top of the battery to be corroded at the connection and they were getting warm after trying to start the car a few times. I cut those off, cleaned them up and soldered new copper ring terminals on, now they are not getting warm anymore but the car is still acting up. Seems to work alright until I pull the handbrake lever once and then it all goes to S*** from there ....

OK, well, the next thing to try is to pull the DRL relay, since that's the other thing the handbrake does.

DRL relay pulled, handbrake lever sensor disconnected, and not a lick of difference.... Car still starts fine and shuts off right away.... Would it be possible maybe the cluster is causing this? Would there be any tell-tale signs?

Noticed something else tonight that got me thinking, I turned the key on and the rad fans came on for a second and went out. The car was dead cold , been sitting for 8 hours or so. I have never heard the fans come on unless it's 30+ degrees or if I have the AC on. Somewhere in this car, there is a gremlin....

VRTn said:

DRL relay pulled, handbrake lever sensor disconnected, and not a lick of difference.... Car still starts fine and shuts off right away....

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I think we'd better check that we're all on the same page.

Up a few posts I understood you to say that the handbrake was affecting how the car behaves during starting:

- with the handbrake pulled ON the car would not even try to start but just click
- with the handbrake OFF the car will start but then stall.

Now that you've removed the DRL and handbrake sensor, is the first symptom still true? (the car just clicks when trying to start?).

I guess I shouldn't say not a lick of difference.... But rather that the car still won't "stay running" . With DRL relay removed , handbrake lever down, car starts fine and shuts off right away. With DRL relay removed and handbrake switch unplugged, car does start, but shuts off right away (same as when handbrake lever is down, with switch plugged in). Now with the handbrake switch plugged in, one click of the lever to depress the switch a bit, car will turn over as long as you want to hold the key, with no start at all.

Just out of curiosity , I pulled the wire off of the fuel shutoff solenoid on the injection pump, and put a direct 12V jumper wire to it to see what it would do, and the car still shuts down right after it starts, how is that possible?

The solenoid is only a backstop to the Quantity Adjuster arm inside the injection pump , which does the actual work of shutting the car off.

Doesn't help your diagnosis much unfortunately.

Can't remember if anyone's asked you if you've had the car scanned for codes, with a good quality VW-specific scanner?

Oh, well that explains it then.

Yes, I have VCDS myself and have scanned it several times with no codes that really lean towards the issue. As of right now, for codes I have:

Transmission control module - no communication (because it's not there anymore)
Air bag - signal too low
ABS - front right sensor bad
EGR - regulation range exceeded (EGR is deleted)

I had a friend come over tonight who's very good with electrical, started looking under the dash again, first of all found that relay 109 was half out of place, don't know how I missed that lastnight when I pulled the DRL relay. Checked power at several fuses in the panel and only showing 9 volts , specifically fuse #7 (I believe it is for VSS, reverse lights) he put 12v to it with his power probe and the cluster lit up brighter like it should (I guess I never noticed how dim it had gotten) and the car started and ran fine countless times over and over with proper 12v applied to fuse #7. Now we are wondering where the power comes from that goes through those smaller fuses in the top of the panel is it the cluster itself or does it come from the ignition switch? .... I feel as if we may be getting very close to finding the root cause of this , whether it be a bad connection somewhere or improper grounding.

Looking at the fuse cluster on top of the battery (that's easy to check). then if that checks out okay, ignition switch.

Have you checked your battery? You’re getting a low voltage air bag code those come on when the battery is dead or nearly so. Or a ground is bad. With a multimeter check the battery terminal voltage. With the car off it should be 12.4-12.7. You really don’t want to see less than 12.3.

VW’s do weird things on low voltage.

Battery shows 12.6v standing still and 13.7v charging , I replaced it last year. I'm thinking the low voltage on the airbag is a result of the low voltage in the fuse panel , something is not letting full voltage run through the fuses , which as far as I can tell after we looked at the wiring diagram some more, and as toxicdoc said, it may be the ignition switch that's the culprit. The fuse panel on top of the battery is A1 now , it did have one wire connector with a bit of corrosion, which I replaced a few days ago

Took the plastic covers off the steering column and fiddled around with the ignition switch a bit , was getting mixed voltage readings from the black wire, 8-9v then shoot to 12v then back to 9 etc .... Decided to go ahead and pull the ignition switch off of my parts car.... and

BINGO! All the fuses now have 12v and the car starts and runs as it should. Thanks to everyone for their help and input!

glad to hear it. high resistance from a failing switch can happen in any vehicle. Checking your voltage was key.