VNT-15 + Malone Stage 3 vs VNT-17 + Malone Stage 4 :: Thoughts?

I've been on the fence between these two options for a couple months now. Originally I was set on the VNT-17 and Stage 4 tune, but I've also considered a VNT-15 and a Stage 3 tune after reading about the VNT-17 having a little more lag than the VNT-15.

Facts about the car:
-235k miles
-Original clutch (will be upgraded to SBC soon)
-Worn out original VNT-15, so I will be upgrading either way.
-DLC1019 Injectors
-0.658 5th gear

I use this car as my daily commuter, as well as for 800+ mile trips from Minneapolis>Milwaukee on a regular basis. I want to keep it reliable and still get the same mileage I'm getting, but increase the power a little when I want access to it.

I would love to hear people's thoughts on what combo might be the best for my application.

I'll have your exact vnt-15 setup in a couple weeks.

Since my car is a daily, I think it would be fine.

I went from a VNT-15 with a TDtuner stage 3 tune to a VNT-17 with a TDtuner race tune.

The 17 and race tune is far more fun to drive. I don't have gauges but from the feel of it full boost is still before 1800rpm.

I tow 2,000lbs with the car and it does great also.

Not to mention after the stage 3 tune the VNT-15 only lasted 10,000 miles before the shaft snapped and blew the compressor housing apart.

Go VNT-17 + Malone Stage 4 :: All the way !
Way more fun for the money

djrhetoric said:

I've been on the fence between these two options for a couple months now. Originally I was set on the VNT-17 and Stage 4 tune, but I've also considered a VNT-15 and a Stage 3 tune after reading about the VNT-17 having a little more lag than the VNT-15.

Facts about the car:
-235k miles
-Original clutch (will be upgraded to SBC soon)
-Worn out original VNT-15, so I will be upgrading either way.
-DLC1019 Injectors
-0.658 5th gear

I use this car as my daily commuter, as well as for 800+ mile trips from Minneapolis>Milwaukee on a regular basis. I want to keep it reliable and still get the same mileage I'm getting, but increase the power a little when I want access to it.

I would love to hear people's thoughts on what combo might be the best for my application.

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IMHO, I would leave the car stock if you want durability. A stage 4 tune and that much fuel is just asking for a head gasket problem and/or bent rods.

turbocharged798 said:

IMHO, I would leave the car stock if you want durability. A stage 4 tune and that much fuel is just asking for a head gasket problem and/or bent rods.

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That is terribly misinformed advice.

turbocharged798 said:

IMHO, I would leave the car stock if you want durability. A stage 4 tune and that much fuel is just asking for a head gasket problem and/or bent rods.

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For sure! If you have no idea what you're doing when you put the car together, have it set up horribly and run a crap tune! Do it and don't look back, you'll never have a happier car! And that isn't too much fuel, you should end up almost smoke free.

I just got the stage 3 tune a couple weeks ago, running it along side a vnt-15. Power wise coming from stock you'll be happy, mileage is suppose to be better too once you're over putting you foot down every chance you get

Personally if the turbo is worn and needs replacing I'd go full out and get the 17/22 hybrid, though I'd do a stage 5 tune with all other requirements to support. I think a stage 5 would effect MPG(??) so maybe not for you.

Either way coming from stock you'll be happy! I vote vnt-17 w/ stg4.

AARodriguez Corp. said:

That is terribly misinformed advice.

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BuzzKen said:

For sure! If you have no idea what you're doing when you put the car together, have it set up horribly and run a crap tune! Do it and don't look back, you'll never have a happier car! And that isn't too much fuel, you should end up almost smoke free.

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You guys really think there is no downside of almost doubling the power of the motor? Delusional. People have manged to bend rods and blow head gaskets on the stock VNT15 with a hot tune. Just ask Peter@idparts....

At the least I like to see head studs or ARL head bolts along with better rods. Combined with a good 40wt oil to protect the bearings, the motor can run all day long without an issue.

Just go big right from the start it will give you a full new car and driving experience. Clutch, turbo, tune and your golden. When done right it will be reliable as any Tdi

turbocharged798 said:

You guys really think there is no downside of almost doubling the power of the motor? Delusional.

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Experienced, knowledgeable, cynical, immature at times...but "delusional"...definitely not. If someone bent rods with a VNT15 and no foreign objects or fluid was introduced to the cylinders then that tuner should be shamed or someone is lying. That is not normal or reasonable to expect to happen.

VNT17 on a stock car with PP764, we've got lots and lots of happy customers running these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEaS0dI_gE0

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I figured the VNT17 with a Stage 4 tune was a pretty solid combo that didn't need any internal engine upgrades, so it's been good to read a differing viewpoint. I forgot to mention that I already have a Malone Stage 1.5 tune, which is great, but I just want a little more.

I liked the idea of staying with the 15 and going stage 3 due to ease of install and cheaper cost, but I didn't like the idea of running the 15 basically maxed out. The cost of install for the 17 is more, but I like that it's more robust and can put down the same/more power without pushing the limits of the hardware.

A 17/22 upgrade on this car is more than I want for what the car is used for, which is why I was considering the VNT17. I'm building an MTDI with a 12mm pump and GTB turbo for a MK1 Rabbit pickup, so that will be my 'fast/fun' vehicle.

turbocharged798 said:

IMHO, I would leave the car stock if you want durability. A stage 4 tune and that much fuel is just asking for a head gasket problem and/or bent rods.

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I have to agree. I have never seen anything spike so fast to 35lbs in my life. only a slow roll in would prevent it. And the car was in perfect working order. Can't say much for the titan injectors it had. Wow....over-fuelling junk. Leak into the cylinders, piston damage, smoke like a tire fire. He had them set up by a bosch certified shop as well. Went back to OEM injectors, stock .184 and left the tune. No smoke and runs a lot better. Still spikes too much though.

Personally I like a Rocket Chip 3 with a VNT-15 and some Bosio PP520 nozzles. Smooth, progressive yet lively. Won't kill anything yet plenty fast.

jasonTDI said:

I have to agree. I have never seen anything spike so fast to 35lbs in my life. only a slow roll in would prevent it. And the car was in perfect working order. Can't say much for the titan injectors it had. Wow....over-fuelling junk. Leak into the cylinders, piston damage, smoke like a tire fire. He had them set up by a bosch certified shop as well. Went back to OEM injectors, stock .184 and left the tune. No smoke and runs a lot better. Still spikes too much though.
Personally I like a Rocket Chip 3 with a VNT-15 and some Bosio PP520 nozzles. Smooth, progressive yet lively. Won't kill anything yet plenty fast.

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Apples to oranges?

DLC1019 vs Titan ?

jasonTDI said:

Personally I like a Rocket Chip 3 with a VNT-15 and some Bosio PP520 nozzles. Smooth, progressive yet lively. Won't kill anything yet plenty fast.

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This. After running a 17/22 and RC6 for five years, when I replaced my engine I installed PP357s, 11mm pump, RC3+ (19.5 PSI) and a VNT-15. I used the Mahle turbo to see how durable it is. I had this combo in my car in 2007 and loved it. It's a phenomenal daily setup. No smoke to speak of, 48 MPG all day long at 75-80 MPH, great response. It's not as fast as the more powerful setups but much more useable.

I went with PP357s because of the 11mm pump. If I had a 10mm I'd have used PP520s. Same outcome.

Agreed

Running DLC1019s, no EGR, malone econotune and my car is an absolute riot to drive everyday. Does not smoke at ALL. It un-intentionally overboosts a few psi but well well within the limits. Runs around 16psi or so depending how much it spikes. The VNT really needs to be remapped for the extra fuel. It also gets kinda wonky at high RPMs. Really need to get a decent tune...

I also have ASV pistons, PD rods so my engine can take it. Probably going to add ARL head bolts soon as well just for safety. I like my motors to last.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

This. After running a 17/22 and RC6 for five years, when I replaced my engine I installed PP357s, 11mm pump, RC3+ (19.5 PSI) and a VNT-15. I used the Mahle turbo to see how durable it is. I had this combo in my car in 2007 and loved it. It's a phenomenal daily setup. No smoke to speak of, 48 MPG all day long at 75-80 MPH, great response. It's not as fast as the more powerful setups but much more useable.

I went with PP357s because of the 11mm pump. If I had a 10mm I'd have used PP520s. Same outcome.

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Great information Peter.

If you plan on nozzzles,improved IC,intake,exhaust,3bar, with your 17/22, you would love the Malone stage 5 or the RC4+. I have both and don't see a lot of difference. That's where you'll really get the max benefit out of the 17/22. The 15 will really limit you as it will only max out at 18 psi and hold around 13 whereas the 17/22 will hold 28 psi. Let your turbo choice be your guide. Mostly, just do it!

Current Garrett or Mahle VNT-15s can run 19.5 sustained, spiking to 22-24 isn't a problem. I've had RC 4, 4+, 5, and 6 with my 17/22. They were all good, RC6 was my favorite, ran it for 4 years. But the 15 is still more responsive. It's really a decision on how you're going to use the car and what you prefer. If you want more absolute power the 17/22 will do better. If you want responsiveness the 15 is the better option.

50harleyrider said:

If you plan on nozzzles,improved IC,intake,exhaust,3bar, with your 17/22, you would love the Malone stage 5 or the RC4+. I have both and don't see a lot of difference. That's where you'll really get the max benefit out of the 17/22. The 15 will really limit you as it will only max out at 18 psi and hold around 13 whereas the 17/22 will hold 28 psi. Let your turbo choice be your guide. Mostly, just do it!

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This is a comparison between a VNT15 and a VNT17, not 17/22. A 17/22 is overkill for what I want in this car. Those two options are more clearly differentiated and target different performance goals.

What I'm wanting to know is if the jump to a VNT17 and Stage 4 tune has any more clear benefits over running a VNT15 and Stage 3 tune.

I appreciate the feedback so far.

AARodriguez Corp. said:

That is terribly misinformed advice.

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To the OP!!

I have the exact set up you are questioning about. The VNT 17, pp764's, Malone stage 4 tune, 3bar MAP, and a SB Stg.2 clutch. (Few other small things , but most everything else is stock)

For the money I spent with AARodriguez, and for the amount of power I gained, I cannot begin to tell you how much fun this car is compared to a stock vehicle!!

I believe he posted the YT Vid of my build and dyno results a few post back.

I am used to driving pretty high horse power vehicles as you can see in my signature I have a 1000+ hp diesel truck. And I have had several others in the past. I am not easy on vehicles that I drive by a longshot. I have not been easy on this set up with my golf. I am still even on the stock exhaust and drive this car fairly hard every time I am in it. ZERO problems for right at ONE Year since he did the work!

In my opinion if you are going to spend the money, contact AARodriguez or whomever you are going to get the parts from, and go all out with this set up.
I am almost confident enough to make you a guarantee that you will not regret it. Of course my guarantee means no money involved for you. LOL
I am honestly and simply just telling you that if you stay with the stock turbo you will regret it. The VNT17 and the supporting mods will be just fine on a stock motor without worry.


Good luck with your decision!! I hope you make the "Right" choice!

David

OH!!!


The lag... There is VERY LITTLE difference!!! When you add the extra fuel with the injectors and the tuning, it lights that VNT 17 very quickly. I personally hate turbo lag and would tell you honestly if I had an issue with this turbo, but it is just fine for street driving and lots of fun.

http://youtu.be/iEaS0dI_gE0


For those that didn't see the vid on page one.

Thanks for the feedback, Big Swole. I actually watched your video yesterday! Very cool.

Based on the dyno numbers I've seen, I'm not really worried about the 17+Stage4 combo really hurting the bottom end. Obviously I might not make it to 500k miles before a bottom end rebuild as I'm pushing more boost, but that doesn't bug me. I do drive hard, but I'm not abusive when it comes to engines.

Lol Yeah, "hard" and "abusive" can sometimes be hard to distinguish between.


I certainly don't abuse anything I own and never have. I just enjoy using the power it makes when I drive it. My car and truck are very low mile vehicles and I'd love for them to live as long as they can.

According to AARod and Malone, you are correct. That combo will be fine. They purposefully will not bump my tune anymore until I get an exhaust. And frankly, even though there may be 15-30 hp left on the table in the "safe zone" for this motor and mods with some custom tuning, I really don't want to push it. Right now I'm just happy it's so fun and reliable. Who knows though. I will get an exhaust soon hopefully. Then I'll consider a small bump in the tuning.

AARodriguez VNT17 on a stock car with PP764 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEaS0dI_gE0[/URL]

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I'm having my VNT-17 installed today. I am running Bosch .216 fully assembled injector bodies. Is there a big fuel economy hit by going to the PP 764's?

quartersaw said:

I'm having my VNT-17 installed today. I am running Bosch .216 fully assembled injector bodies. Is there a big fuel economy hit by going to the PP 764's?

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Not much for me. Maybe slight drop in city because I use the added power, but hwy is still great economy because I just cruise if I'm going on a trip or something.

Big Swole said:

Not much for me. Maybe slight drop in city because I use the added power, but hwy is still great economy because I just cruise if I'm going on a trip or something.

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Thanks for the feedback!

Either way you go, I would plan/budget for that Clutch upgrade sooner rather than later.

I vote VNT 17 and the Stage 4. I bought a Golf TDI about two months ago with a few upgrades. When I got it, it had the Kerma TDI 150+ HP Kit which includes:

-Garrett VNT17 Turbo
-Stainless Oil Supply Lines
-Fratelli Bosio DLC 1019 injector nozzles
-South Bend Stage 2 Daily clutch kit
-3 Bar MAP (boost) sensor
-Aftermarket Cams
-Kerma Q-Loader/Chip Tuner

It then had a 2.5" straight pipe exhaust, aftermarket sidemount intercooler (ECS), and an EGR Delete added.

All I can say is WOW! I can't believe the power this car has. With heavy acceleration I hit a spike of 24lbs of boost, holding at around 20-22. It has great pick-up, and I couldn't be happier. I consistently get 46 mpg mixed highway and city.