Clutch choice with stage 4 tune and dual mass flywheel

eddieleephd · Jan 21, 2020

Running a Malone Stage 4 tune and 1019 nozzles Garrett VNT 17 turbo and 11mm pump

After running a single mass flywheel for a year and loosing 5th gear I decided to go back to a dual mass flywheel and get rid of the chatter.

Trying to Figure out if I should run the LUK clutch pressure plate and pad, or go back with the SB pressure plate and pad. I guess I assume that they are even compatible, are they?
Not sure what the best option is here, obviously. Just tired of the chatter and curious if anyone has good information to share about this predicament.

Code:

j. Driveline

1. Clutch

For the A3 and B4 cars, if an upgraded clutch proves to be necessary as a result of engine upgrades, the VR6 clutch assembly is a direct replacement, and any aftermarket clutch that is suitable for a VR6 application is also suitable for a TDI application.

For the A4 cars, a VR6 or VR6-compatible clutch assembly can be installed if the flywheel is replaced with a flywheel from a 4-cylinder G60 engine.

Upgraded clutch parts are available in the USA from www.dieselgeek.com and elsewhere.
Back to Top

2. Final drive and differential

The weakest link in the O2A (for A3 and B4 cars) and O2J (for A4 cars) 5-speed manual transmissions involves the final drive and differential assembly. Vehicles with performance engine modifications, which may experience hard drag-racing-style launches, wheelspin that results in wheel hop, and similar actions which place the greatest stress on the final drive assembly, should have the final drive and differential upgraded to reduce the chance of having problems in this area. Quaiffe or Peloquin final drive units employ a "torque biasing differential" that improves grip in slippery conditions while eliminating the spider-gear cross-shaft which is a weak point in the stock differential. These final drive units should be bolted to the final drive ring gear with high-strength bolts, usually available as part of the final drive kit. Installation of such components is best left to experts in manual transmissions.

Be aware of the possibility that some earlier models may use a different style of half-shaft mounting arrangement compared to other models that use a similar transmission. There have been a few situations where apparently the half-shaft mounting arrangement of an O2J transmission was found on what is otherwise an O2A transmission. Consult with experts in VW manual transmissions, such as wherever you intend to purchase the unit from or whoever you are planning to get to install it

WildChild80 · Jan 21, 2020

I finally got my S2D in and I'm 400 miles into it and it's silent and silky...way more manners than the S2E for what it's worth

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 21, 2020

I don't know if there are any upgraded clutches available that will match with a LUK or Sachs DMF. However, current SBC clutches are quiet. Have been for years. They now use the disc from the AHU/1Z cars that have a floating hub. I doubt the clutch caused your 5th gear failure, more likely it was low gear oil level or too much torque delivered in 5th.

I've run a Stage 2 Daily in my Wagon for over 100K miles. It's quiet, and I've had zero transmission issues, except for a worn synchro that preceded the clutch install.

hey_allen · Jan 21, 2020

Who makes this clutch that you're talking about IBW?

I don't want to hijack this thread, but your response seems to be tracking along the lines of my vehicle plans.

I'm currently still running what appears to be the stock DMF in my 2000 Jetta with 345k miles on it and have experienced it slipping a little bit recently.
I was planning to install a G60/VR6 clutch set that I have on hand, but am open to improving on it, if it'll make a difference.

It's tuned with a Malone stage 3, running stock size turbo, 11mm pump, and PP520 nozzles.
I'm not a racer, it's just my fun daily driver.

Rrusse11 · Jan 21, 2020

"more likely it was low gear oil level or too much torque delivered in 5th" IBW

This^! My pre floating hub SBC2E is a great clutch, I do have a Fluidampr
as well, which helps to alleviate synchro chatter. It's tempting to hit the
torque below 2k rpm on the highway, NOT good for 5th. Downshift folks!

eddieleephd · Jan 21, 2020

I don't think the clutch contributed to my gear failure.
It chatters in neutral at a stop.
Runs quiet, and is quite when the clutch is pressed. I do see a stage 2 from South Bend that goes with the dual mass listed for $499.00

https://www.idparts.com/sbc-stage-endurance-clutch-for-dmf-p-862.html

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 21, 2020

hey_allen it's a South Bend Clutch.

And eddie, the rattle is the output shaft of the transmission. That's why it stops when you step on the pedal, transmission is disconnected from the engine. But I've not heard of anyone experiencing gear failure as a consequence of using an SMF.

I've attempted to have the LUK kit modified, but it doesn't appear to be a good idea because the LUK clutch is self-adjusting, and the adjusting mechanism doesn't get along with higher friction material. SBC stopped making upgraded kits for the Sachs DMF years ago.

eddieleephd · Jan 21, 2020

IndigoBlueWagon said:
hey_allen it's a South Bend Clutch.

And eddie, the rattle is the output shaft of the transmission. That's why it stops when you step on the pedal, transmission is disconnected from the engine. But I've not heard of anyone experiencing gear failure as a consequence of using an SMF.

I've attempted to have the LUK kit modified, but it doesn't appear to be a good idea because the LUK clutch is self-adjusting, and the adjusting mechanism doesn't get along with higher friction material. SBC stopped making upgraded kits for the Sachs DMF years ago.

Interesting, curious that it's still listed on idparts.
Guess I need to look at the specs for the dual mass again before I use it...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

eddieleephd · Jan 21, 2020

Guess that's not compatible after all.
Good thing I chose the cheaper route and it comes with free returns.
Next time I guess I'll use the endurance clutch and see what difference that makes...

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 21, 2020

eddieleephd said:
Interesting, curious that it's still listed on idparts.

Thanks for pointing that out. I shut it off.

Rrusse11 · Jan 21, 2020

eddie,
Next time with an SBC2E, and presumably a new 5th, get a Peloquin.
You've got the mods to appreciate it.

Rrusse11 · Jan 21, 2020

Hey IBW,
Didja' get your .700 5th?

WildChild80 · Jan 22, 2020

I really think you'll like the S2D better, have both and the S2E is a lot for a daily driven car. Super light pedal on both but the endurance has so much metal and ceramics it gets grabby.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 22, 2020

Rrusse11 said:
Hey IBW,
Didja' get your .700 5th?

I did. Dragging my feet on having it installed. Since I replaced the exhaust in IBW the car is so much quieter I'm not so eager for taller gearing. But I'll probably give it a shot. Or I might punt and pull the .71 out of my old transmission and put that in.

eddieleephd · Jan 22, 2020

Rrusse11 said:
eddie,
Next time with an SBC2E, and presumably a new 5th, get a Peloquin.
You've got the mods to appreciate it.

Yes, I looked at the Peloquin Diff and realized that it was a bit too much for my blood at the moment. I just ordered a lower mileage transmission and can consider it for future possibilities...

WildChild80 said:
I really think you'll like the S2D better, have both and the S2E is a lot for a daily driven car. Super light pedal on both but the endurance has so much metal and ceramics it gets grabby.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Guess I remembered the old post incorrectly, I'm running the S2D now.
It has been a good clutch so far, just that chatter in neutral.

I need to treat this 5th a bit more gently than the last I reccon.

WildChild80 · Jan 22, 2020

eddieleephd said:
Yes, I looked at the Peloquin Diff and realized that it was a bit too much for my blood at the moment. I just ordered a lower mileage transmission and can consider it for future possibilities...

Guess I remembered the old post incorrectly, I'm running the S2D now.

It has been a good clutch so far, just that chatter in neutral.

I need to treat this 5th a bit more gently than the last I reccon.

If you're in neutral with the clutch engaged it's not chatter and no clutch you put in will sound much if any different

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

eddieleephd · Jan 22, 2020

WildChild80 said:
If you're in neutral with the clutch engaged it's not chatter and no clutch you put in will sound much if any different

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I'm of the thought that it's due to the flywheel, not the clutch.

Looking at the design it appears that the difference in manufacturing is the dual mass was designed to take up more of the idle variation. The single mass uses a clutch plate with springs where the dual mass does has the springs within it.

The alternator clutch is used for the same reason so the alternator doesn't get destroyed by the erratic idle speed variance.

Reality is that I will have to live with it either way, and yet another thing learned in this life.

Now if I can just figure out what is causing my battery to drain. Looking back at my swap thread to figure out what the issue could be I see T14a/2 was the only one I didn't switch and am wondering if that could be causing my issue. I might have to switch it over to be powered by the 109 to know...

gforce1108 · Jan 22, 2020

Look into DKW clutches if you are interested in a DMF performance clutch. Since the newer 6sp cars have syncro issues with SMF - the DKW is one of the best options for them.

I know Chris Korwan has become a distributor of them (Korwerks LLC). If I didn't already have a SBC SMF in my Jetta - that's what I'd run.

BobnOH · Jan 22, 2020

With a new kit from a reputable parts place, don't think you need to worry much about DMF vs SMF. You do want the new unit be rated for the appropriate ft/lbs of torque for your mods.

eddieleephd · Jan 23, 2020

I was just thinking about the clutch and flywheel combo and started to wonder what the purpose of the lighter SBC flywheels actually is. I looked at a couple different sites, including the South Bend website (haven't found less than 22.5 lbs flywheels listed on their site) and haven't found any reason for their use.

Does anyone have a reason for their existence?

Quicker RPM increase is the only reason I can think of, however, it reduces mass.
The greater mass would maintain energy when letting off on the clutch, but a lighter flywheel might be easier on the transmission...

WildChild80 · Jan 23, 2020

This was brought up a year or 2 ago and it was reported to have caused issues...wasn't clear about what issues, I'd imagine it's be a wild ride with a lighter flywheel

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Rrusse11 · Jan 23, 2020

The heavier flywheel helps to smooth vibration from the high compression
piston "event". There is a 17.5# SBC flywheel, and I'm tempted to have
my flywheel (22#) machined down a couple #s next clutch job.
The gassers go as low as 13#s.

Any reduction will make for a rougher drivetrain, especially at idle.

eddieleephd · Jan 23, 2020

After a little searching it seems lighter clutches are noisier due to increased vibration.

deepseafortydog said:
Sorry to bring this dead horse back to life, but I was deployed and got back. I just wanted to close this up for anyone who was searching or researching clutch issues.

I got on the phone with South Bend, they offered free shipping on another clutch and reduced the price. So the new clutch is a half ceramic clutch with beefier springs. They claimed that it would be quieter than the old one, and it is - as long as you clutch it a few times at idle. Due to the ultra light flywheel (purchased with the original aftermarket clutch kit) there is still noise, but not nearly as bad. Replacing the flywheel with the heavier weight one was not an option for me due to lack of funds.

I feel like South Bend treated me right and I am much happier with the new clutch. Greater clamping power and less noise. Thanks.

Rrusse11 said:
Maverick,

Do NOT go for a lightened flywheel with a TDI. Too much vibration,
the usual SMF for the diesel is 21-22#s, and there's any number of good
reasons for that. If and when I ever need to replace my SBC2 End,
I might shave a # or 2 off mine, but then I also have a Fluidampr,
an additional harmonic dampener in the equation.

Are you looking at gasser clutches?

eddieleephd · Jan 23, 2020

Thank you,
Funny I was just quoting you from another thread.
This response was a bit more in depth, I appreciate it.
It makes sense.

Rrusse11 said:
The heavier flywheel helps to smooth vibration from the high compression
piston "event". There is a 17.5# SBC flywheel, and I'm tempted to have
my flywheel (22#) machined down a couple #s next clutch job.
The gassers go as low as 13#s.

Any reduction will make for a rougher drivetrain, especially at idle.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jan 23, 2020

The engine builds revs faster with a lighter flywheel, just like in a gasoline powered car. It's also more inclined to stall, although that's really not a problem with TDIs. I had a 13 lb. wheel in my track day Golf. Very responsive. It might be noisier, although my Golf had all the sound deadening out so it was loud regardless.

We did have a problem where the low speed shudder in the '99.5 was worse with the light flywheel. I doubt that would be an issue in any but the old 81 pin cars. Regardless, I'm happy with the 22 lb. in my daily.

eddieleephd · Feb 5, 2020

Here I replaced the transmission with a 120k mile transmission and all the noise is gone.
Same clutch and flywheel and throw out bearing.
Went to the drive through and realized it wasn't loud on the way to Atlanta.
Now I've put at least 10 hours on it and it's like it was, or best I can remember, as quiet as a dual mass.

Mongler98 · Feb 6, 2020

SBC stage 2 enduro with lighter 14lb flywheel. It's what I run with

Curious Chris · Feb 9, 2020

eddieleephd said:
Yes, I looked at the Peloquin Diff and realized that it was a bit too much for my blood at the moment. I just ordered a lower mileage transmission and can consider it for future possibilities...
Guess I remembered the old post incorrectly, I'm running the S2D now.
It has been a good clutch so far, just that chatter in neutral.
I need to treat this 5th a bit more gently than the last I reccon.

I love the Wavetrac LSD in the 5 speed transmission in my garage!

eddieleephd · Feb 23, 2020

So after finally draining and opening the trans I found it didn't have all the fluid I put in last time, not sure where it went, no signs I could find.
Old trans fifth gear was gone

New trans was obviously the best choice.

Clutch choice with stage 4 tune and dual mass flywheel

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

not-a-mechanic

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg

Top Post Dawg