"Porsche Does Not Believe in Diesels"

ruking

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to be fair... the e46 m3 has a 3.2 that produces more than 300hp NA (not turbo)... give it up man its not up for debate. Gas power is further along than diesel right now as far as power output is concerned




ok well really that only strengthens MY point. if you read my post i explained that the emissions of diesel are worse for a given gallon, not for a given mile. the diesel wins, but you dont have to convince me, im on board. its the other 99% of the US.

Given post #54, it was never mine to give up in the first place;):eek:
 

dubStrom

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Careful now... per gallon or per mile driven?

i dont think there is much argument against (in general) diesels get better mileage.
diesel itself produces higher BTU that gasoline. thus for a given vehicle will use less fuel to move.

I think much of the disconnect with diesels is the confusion about emissions and "global warming." Diesel has a higher carbon dioxide output per mile than gasoline. (22lbs per gallon vs 19.5 roughly) That argument doesnt hold up to me, as i see i dont burn gallons per commute, rather i drive miles per commute. If i was to drive a 60 mile commute in my diesel i would produce something shy of 30 lbs of carbon dioxide, whereas in a comparable(performance and option/size etc)gasser i would probably produce closer to 40lbs.

however the two thought trains are generally not combine. Hyper-milers almost never break there mileage down by carbon units/mile, while the "save the earth" community frequently point to the fact that a gallon of diesel produces a larger carbon footprint as compared to a gallon of gasoline.

but to digress back to the main topic, porsche's demographic is likely not concerned with emission, mileage, or their personal carbon footprint. and a 1.9 liter diesel engine will never produce the same kind of power that a 1.9 liter gasser will, and thus it is not suitable for most sports cars in the eyes of the vast majority.
Ben dur's post makes real sense, and it deserves reiteration to emphasize the importance of the distinction:
The amount of Carbon dioxide emitted per volume of fuel (diesel versus gasoline) is different. One correct way to state the difference:

The complete combustion of gasoline (no Carbon Monoxide- complete oxidation to CO2 and water) results in 12.6% less carbon dioxide production. Here are data from one source-

CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon
CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon

So, 19.9 is 12.6% less than 22.2 (that much is a simple fact). Can you hear the spin? ... "diesel engines produce more greenhouse gas than gasoline engines" :p

But, there are two additional things to consider.

1. The first and simplest is that Diesel engines generally produce greater than 12.6% more DISTANCE or miles per gallon (liters/km) than gasoline engines. In fact, if you believe some of the claims around here.. OK, we won't go there:D

But apples to apples comparisons (cars with similar displacement) reveal that diesel cars get anywhere from 20 to 25% farther per gallon (point made by Ben dur, and others). You can start arguing about torque versus horse power now if you want to, but...

The point is that the actual amount of CO2 emissions is at worse, on parity, but more likely to be lower in real world cause and effect... "driving from here to there" Diesel vehicles contribute less carbon dioxide to the atmosphere than gasoline vehicles.

2. The second thing to consider, which is less important than the first additional consideration, is the question of how efficient (or complete) is the combustion in the engine? That is, how much additional combustion is completed by the catalyst (which is essentially there to take CO to CO2). The answer to this is how diesel engines are inherently more efficient than gasoline engines, and isn't important to the about facts.

But Porsche buyers are not Volkswagen buyers. Porsche is now bona fide boutique, and Money is often seeking prestige AND raw power. Faster gasoline engines beat not faster Turbo diesel in a straight line. But diesel has advantages mid corner due to tractable stable torque that does NOT spin out. I pass V8s handily everyday, with high confidence, in my li'l Volkswagen.
 
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Ben Dur

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That's not what the underlined says.

yeah your right... let me put my foot in my mouth for a second

gasoline 19lbs/gallon
diesel 22lbs/gallon

mixed the words up... the underlined word should read "gallon" not mile...
i apologize, my proof reading skills have failed me
 

Ben Dur

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^ and thus alot of the confusion to normal consumers.

look. im arguing for diesel and i cant get the facts straight (or rather i mix up my words.) how can we expect teen girls with their cellphone stuck to their face to understand the argument?

my point is, porsche isnt very invested in the diesel game because it doesnt fit their marketing agenda. (speed, power, and the ever growing need to please the ill-educated environmentalists)
 

TDIMeister

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I think Diesel is a consummately good fit for an SUV, regardless of the nameplate that adorns the vehicle. That said, I'm completely baffled that Porsche would put the same V6 Diesel engine in the Cayenne that is shared with platform twins the VW Touareg and Audi Q7. Porsche can further differentiate the Cayenne (and afford to price it accordingly) with the Group's 4.2 V8 TDI. Ditto plans to put a Diesel engine in the Panamera. The people who buy a Porsche don't buy one because they really care about the cost or because it gets fabulous fuel economy. They buy one for the unadulterated status symbol and performance that a Porsche affords them. Absolutely baffling.

The calculus involved in deciding whether to build a Boxer-6 Diesel is far more complex than we armchair automotive CEOs are qualified to perform. As an engineer who designs engines, there is no technical reason why a such an engine cannot be made and be a very good one at that. In fact it would not surprise me one bit that prototypes have been built and shown to executives. But there has to be a business case and a fit to the product and, whether we like the decision or not, the powers at be in Zuffenhausen and Wolfsburg don't believe there is, or at least that's what we know based on our "you're-on-a-need-to-know-basis-and-you-don't-to-know".

Although I don't like SUVs personally, a BMW X6 35d or 5-series GT x35d would be closest to my future if ever offered here, but more realistically I'm waiting for a 335xd Touring.
 

dubStrom

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I think Diesel is a consummately good fit for an SUV, regardless of the nameplate that adorns the vehicle. That said, I'm completely baffled that Porsche would put the same V6 Diesel engine in the Cayenne that is shared with platform twins the VW Touareg and Audi Q7. Porsche can further differentiate the Cayenne (and afford to price it accordingly) with the Group's 4.2 V8 TDI. Ditto plans to put a Diesel engine in the Panamera. The people who buy a Porsche don't buy one because they really care about the cost or because it gets fabulous fuel economy. They buy one for the unadulterated status symbol and performance that a Porsche affords them. Absolutely baffling.

The calculus involved in deciding whether to build a Boxer-6 Diesel is far more complex than we armchair automotive CEOs are qualified to perform. As an engineer who designs engines, there is no technical reason why a such an engine cannot be made and be a very good one at that. In fact it would not surprise me one bit that prototypes have been built and shown to executives. But there has to be a business case and a fit to the product and, whether we like the decision or not, the powers at be in Zuffenhausen and Wolfsburg don't believe there is, or at least that's what we know based on our "you're-on-a-need-to-know-basis-and-you-don't-to-know".

Although I don't like SUVs personally, a BMW X6 35d or 5-series GT x35d would be closest to my future if ever offered here, but more realistically I'm waiting for a 335xd Touring.
Subaru's Boxer diesel is very popular in Europe. I have read that it is very compact but still provides that low center of gravity that cars like the 911 have. There are many youtube videos of them plowing through a foot of snow. It seems to be the ideal geometry for performance, and a twin turbo diesel flat six could be astonishingly torquey. We own a Subaru wagon. It drives like a slot car with very little sway, and breezes through snow and ice. I was hopeful about the boxer diesel and was ready to buy one, but Subaru backed out. A mid-engine rear wheel drive diesel would be a blast.

And with the extra torque, you could spend a little more weight in suspension and add a few more gadgets to sell it. They could downplay the economy, and just brag about the enormous torque and speed. It is kind of surprising that it is not available in diesel-savvy Europe.

But VWs concept R is a mid-engine sports car, and it is powered with gasoline. Oddly, it also has the DSG. That is a strange combination for a sports car. The current setup has V6 gasser. I wonder where that engine came from. If they engineered it specifically for this application, then obviously they ruled out diesel, or a boxer (4 or 6). They could conceivably install a V6 TDI, since they all ready make them.
 
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LRTDI

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Porsche has gone down the Turbo route since about 1973 I think with the first roadgoing 911 Turbo.

US sales of diesels are endangered by the current and latest crop of turbos appearing in such cars as Fords. Ford stopped the F150 going diesel in the US in favor of the Ecoboost V6. However Ford still builds the engine for Range Rover's use elsewhere.

I seriously beginning to doubt diesel's viability in the US given the improvement in economy that turbo gas engines. The day we see a Hybrid Volt/Prius like vehicle with a turbo gas engine, diesels may go like dinosaurs.
 
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ruking

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Porsche has gone down the Turbo route since about 1973 I think with the first roadgoing 911 Turbo.

US sales of diesels are endangered by the current and latest crop of turbos appearing in such cars as Fords. Ford stopped the F150 going diesel in the US in favor of the Ecoboost V6. However Ford still builds the engine for Range Rover's use elsewhere.

I seriously beginning to doubt diesel's viability in the US given the improvement in economy that turbo gas engines. The day we see a Hybrid Volt/Prius like vehicle with a turbo gas engine, diesels may go like dinosaurs.
I think that really depends on what you mean. Non viability has ALWAYS been the policy. If you just look at the percentage of US diesel passenger cars, what is "viable" about a one half of one percent or 1.27 M diesel vehicle fleet? )254.4 M vehicles? Most diesels are (not so light) light trucks. You don't need me to tell you there are different standards for not so light, light trucks. So the total diesels are 2% of the population or 5.088 M. So as you can see they have done a real good job keeping passenger diesel CARS NON viable.
 
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TDI-NEVER-DIE

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Most people on the forums here really are not buying porsche, ferrari, lambo.. most people on here are buying vw with a diesel engine, the good old days of cheap gas and big v8 motors are gone. When gas reaches $4 gallon again people will continue to look for more efficient ways to get around. Most americans will realize that diesel does not equal smelly and dirty. If we can get cleaner diesel fuel then other car makers can enter the market that is pretty much dominated by vw in small duty vehicles. We should all be driving diesels, natural gas and electric cars, better for the environment all around. I was very happy to see my friends new golf that does not smoke, well maybe 10% but that is pretty good that it captures 90% of the smoke. Anyways.. just my 2 cents.. go diesels.
 

SuburbanTDI

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Although it's not surprising to see this reaction, don't get carried away.

Porsche still puts on the street a 3.6 liter, 620 horsepower, 205 mile per hour projectile that weighs less than a Jetta, Beetle or 4dr TDI Golf.

And though it is true that a Cayenne is not a Porsche keeping with tradition, neither is the VW Tourag, Passat or Phaeton. Volkswagon probably doesn't even make a vehicle that could even arguably be described as "People's Car" anymore.

Porsche however still makes a Sportscar, and there is still no substitute. :)
 

bhtooefr

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Here's the simple reason that Porsche is using the 3.0 V6 TDI, rather than the 4.2 V8...

They know the 3.0 V6 will sell quite well, and it'll bring down their fleet CO2 further than the 4.2 V8 would, both by the fact that it'll sell better, and it'll emit less CO2 than the V8.

Of course, they could go Aston Martin's way... rebadge a Toyota iQ, put leather all over the interior, and try to sell one to every Aston Martin owner to reduce the fleet CO2. They could do the same with a Lupo, and it would be ugly as hell, but it would work...
 

TDIMeister

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AFAIK, Porsche under VW Group ownership doesn't stand alone to meet CAFE requirements alone, but as a group. Porsche/VW's strategy should be to distinguish and not to dilute the performance and image of Porsche products with basically badge-engineered platform twins that are the Cayenne, Q7 and Touareg and give the same engines with not one HP more.

Sometimes you just need to forget CO2, look at the bigger picture and be a little creative. CAFE can be met by Dieselizing more existing models, bringing-in smaller models and Bluemotion variants already available in other markets.

Heck, put a 2-stage turbocharger system into the V6 TDI so that it would have a remote chance of competing performance-wise to BMW's x35d engine that's already available in North America!

Edit: Today, in Germany and elsewhere, you can buy a Touareg 4.2 V8 TDI and you can buy an Audi Q7 6.0 V12 TDI. But if you want to a Diesel Porsche Cayenne, you have no other choice than the 3.0 V6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hYo_JMjYd8&feature=player_embedded
 
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jcool

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Here's the simple reason that Porsche is using the 3.0 V6 TDI, rather than the 4.2 V8...

They know the 3.0 V6 will sell quite well, and it'll bring down their fleet CO2 further than the 4.2 V8 would, both by the fact that it'll sell better, and it'll emit less CO2 than the V8.

Of course, they could go Aston Martin's way... rebadge a Toyota iQ, put leather all over the interior, and try to sell one to every Aston Martin owner to reduce the fleet CO2. They could do the same with a Lupo, and it would be ugly as hell, but it would work...

Yes a LUPO! LOL:D
 

ruking

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Although it's not surprising to see this reaction, don't get carried away.

Porsche still puts on the street a 3.6 liter, 620 horsepower, 205 mile per hour projectile that weighs less than a Jetta, Beetle or 4dr TDI Golf.

And though it is true that a Cayenne is not a Porsche keeping with tradition, neither is the VW Tourag, Passat or Phaeton. Volkswagon probably doesn't even make a vehicle that could even arguably be described as "People's Car" anymore.

Porsche however still makes a Sportscar, and there is still no substitute. :)
@ upwards of $132,000 (the "wimpy" 500 hp/480# ft of torque's MSRP on edmunds.com), just that alone will guarantee HUGE numbers and percentages will FLY off the Porsche dealers showroom floor? ;)

Yes and I for one am glad it has arguably "evolved" from the early "people's car". My 1970 VW Beetle was a rocket ship in comparison to the late 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's MY's Beetle's (I now shudder to remember)
 
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bhtooefr

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Sometimes you just need to forget CO2, look at the bigger picture and be a little creative. CAFE can be met by Dieselizing more existing models, bringing-in smaller models and Bluemotion variants already available in other markets.
I said CO2 because I was talking about European requirements, not US requirements.

(Then again, with that 120 g/km fleet limit, it'll probably have to be something along the lines of, "buy a new 911 Turbo, get a free Volkswagen L1!")
 

TDIMeister

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Noted. You're correct. an e-UP and other EV models the Group will introduce in the coming years will help drive down the fleet numbers. Outlook in the EU for 2020 is 95 g/km fleet average CO2.
 

dubStrom

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This is something that I would consider in a heartbeat..! Apparently, Porsche is now considering a smaller SUV to be called the Cajin, and it will have a TDI option. Think Audi Q5, plus.

http://www.autolatest.com/en/news-d...rsche-cajun-2011-2-0-tdi-and-3-0-tfsi-engines

I'll take mine with the TDI please. ;)
Cute, overpriced, impractical personal toy. Perfect for the upper 5%. If it actually shows up as TDI (in our dreams), only the upper 5% will be able to spend there extended Bush tax cut on one. But most logical people would tel you that they'll expand business, and opt for hiring one of the rest of us (in our dreams).

Not jaded, just a realistic statement, that's all. Whatever happened to practical, useful, economical (OMG, not that!), affordable? So, who the heck are they going to sell it to in NA?
 
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BeetleGo

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And the other Porsches are any different!? Read the title of this thread.

I believe that Porsche will offer a TDI, because they already do in the Cayenne. And putting one in a smaller package sounds great!
 
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German_1er_diesel

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Subaru's Boxer diesel is very popular in Europe.
Journalists like it, apparently it's very good. However, people are not buying it in large quantities, because then you'd have to have a Subaru... which means you'll have to put up with a TINY dealer network.

To illustrate the issue, here's a table of new car sales by manufacturer and brand in Europe:

Where's Subaru? Right: "Others". And there's a lot of "Others"
 

German_1er_diesel

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You have probably looked at it in much GREATER detail than I, but I had read in passing the Subaru diesel does not deliver good mpg numbers and in relation to its gassers even worst percentage wise. Bottom line is mpg would not be a factor for a (gasser) Suburu owner to switch.
To get some real data, I had a look at Subaru's spec sheet for the Impreza (I know, the American Impreza has a 2.5 gasser, but Europe doesn't get that for fuel economy reasons!)

So... the diesel and gasser both have 150hp, the diesel gets 1 second quicker to 100 kph (62 mph) than the gasser. It also gets 5.7 l/100km combined (41 mpg) instead of the gasser's 8.6 l/100km (27 mpg).
So maybe that wouldn't be significant enough for US Subaru drivers to make the switch, but I'd say that's a pretty huge margin.

To get a feed for the 5.7 l/100km figure compared to the rest of the market, a 2.0 TDI Golf 4motion is rated at 5.5 l/100km (43 mpg), so a little bit better. A front wheel drive Golf 2.0 TDI is rated at 4.7 l/100km (50 mpg).
 

ruking

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Thanks for the data graphs. The funny thing is the Subaru TDI gets 52% better. Now for me, that would more than tip the scales in favor of the Suburu TDI. But @ the same time if I lived in Europe, I probably would have to rethink the ??? "why" of getting a Subaru @ all. Indeed even in the US markets, Subaru is more of a niche market/player.

As a personal note, I was amused the European market would not get the 2.5 L engine for economy reasons. In the US markets, it is considered an eco economy car here (@ 21 mpg) and has almost a (religious) cult following.

That being said, really in the US markets, the same can be said for the VW market share (2.5%).

The VW TDI. has actually done EXTREMELY well (09 TDI=25% or app 56,000 units). 2010 VW sales might end the year @ 41% TDI's !! (up 64% year over year!) The TDI gets app 68% better fuel mileage than the gasser turbo !! YET, TDI's (in volume and percentage terms) are an EXTREMELY hard sell.

SIDEBAR:

Diesels are 2% of the passenger car markets 5.088 (M/254.4 M). 75% are so called (not so light- 3/4 to 1 ton trucks)..., LIGHT trucks (3.816 M) . Let's put it this way if I was an equestrian and wanted to tow a 3 horse trailer and a bale or 4 of hay, tack and other equipment/s.... This leaves app 1.272 M vehicles or one half of one per cent diesel passenger cars. In the US markets, unfortunately VW dealer service is the stuff legends are made of. It would seem they are quite proud of that reputation !! ??
 
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German_1er_diesel

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Thanks for the data graphs. The funny thing is the Subaru TDI gets 52% better. Now for me, that would more than tip the scales in favor of the Suburu TDI. But @ the same time if I lived in Europe, I probably would have to rethink the ??? "why" of getting a Subaru @ all.
I actually considered an Impreza back in 2008, before they had the Boxer Diesel, because they had LPG powered versions of everything back then. But the combination of 70+ km trips to the dealer, low resale value and not needing AWD at all made me strike that one from the list quite early.
That being said, really in the US markets the same can be said for the VW market share (2.5%) and the VW TDI.
I think Subaru would love having 2.5% in Europe - as you can see, Lexus (0.1%) is in there, Subaru is not. And Lexus has never turned a profit in Europe...
The TDI gets app 68% better fuel mileage than the gasser turbo !!
America only gets the largest gasser turbo - which virtually nobody in Europe buys...
 

ruking

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I actually considered an Impreza back in 2008, before they had the Boxer Diesel, because they had LPG powered versions of everything back then. But the combination of 70+ km trips to the dealer, low resale value and not needing AWD at all made me strike that one from the list quite early.

I think Subaru would love having 2.5% in Europe - as you can see, Lexus (0.1%) is in there, Subaru is not. And Lexus has never turned a profit in Europe...

America only gets the largest gasser turbo - which virtually nobody in Europe buys...

Indeed most folks (US market) really don't get that the European's ship us their gas guzzlers. Why? Because they can ?? !! The regulators have given their blessings?

It is also amazing that the regulators do not allow the Euro fuel "misers" into the ...country !! ?? (US markets) Why?
Because they CAN !!!?? Because LESS fuel mileage is BETTER !!??

Sidebar: I only found this out after reading a very obscure/arcane thread in www.TDIclub.com. The 03 TDI 5 speed US (market version) got an EPA of 42/49 and posted 90 hp/155 # ft. (that was enough to sell me) Yet the European version had more power (100 hp/177# ft) and got 2 mpg BETTER !!??

Despite (side bar to the SIDEBAR) or maybe because of having a 6 speed manual and bigger fuel injectors (probably among other things.) It was also stated that it cost MORE money to make the VW US market compliant.
 
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German_1er_diesel

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Indeed most folks (US market) really don't get that the European's ship us their gas guzzlers. Why? Because they can ?? !! It is also amazing that the regulators do not allow the Euro fuel "misers" into the ...country !! ?? (US markets) Why? Because the fuel mileage is BETTER !!??
Because everybody else also only sells gas guzzlers and customers apparently want something with more power than the average European to go... 65 on the highway?
 

ruking

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Again an amazing anomoly !! (Again I have read in passing) The real European speed limits are 80/88 mph. Yet if European's meander along @ 100 mph, they'd better be in the SLOW lane eh?
 

German_1er_diesel

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It depends... Scandinavians drive really, really slow. 65-70, very relaxed - because speeding there is EXPENSIVE.
Germans drive 20 kph over the speed limit all the time, I hear... and on speed-limit-free autobahns they consider 110-120 mph a nice, relaxing cruise speed.
Any gasser will guzzle at speeds like that, so nearly every car in the left lane will be a diesel.
 
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