Runaway TDi Any assistance is appreciated!

If it won’t turn, don’t try to force it to TDC. Take it apart as is. If you pop the cam pulley off you may need special tools to get it back in time.


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Matty said:

Okay so when the car is jacked up and put in 5th I turn the wheels and the flywheel does not move at all. So I'm thinking head off time, I'm just wondering since it's not at TDC can anyone tell me if I take it apart will I be able to get it at TDC when I'm putting it back together or does it have to be TDC before I take off the head?

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Once you remove the head, or even just the cam, you can turn the engine to TDC.

Is the serpentine belt off?

(If not it would not be the first time that a locked up component there stopped the engine from turning over. A friend of mine got a fairly decent-condition Audi for $500 this way....)

Thanks guys okay so tomorrow morning I will be taking the head off, since it's not at TDC at the moment I will just rip it apart and then what all needs to be put at TDC / aligned when putting back together? The fuel pump, the cam and the crank? Or is there something I'm missing

Yes, the IP, cam and crank need to be synched so get the tools needed to do that.
At this point, most people would replace the timing belt and everything it touches, excluding major components.

Serpentine belt is still on, my wonder is what could fail from 2 seconds of max revs besides the internals on the engine, I'm thinking the IP might have slipped a during the runaway but I want to be sure there is no head/piston damage before I replace any other parts, once the head is back on and I'm 100% sure it's fine I don't mind spending some money, I really don't want to buy a new (2nd hand) engine though. @flee when you say it has to be synched I would need to alignt the crank to TDC, the cam pulley to TDC and the IP to TDC then the cam has to be synched? By the way I really appreciate all the replies from everyone!! You guys are awesome

BEFORE you pull the head remove the serpentine belt and see if the crank is still locked up.

I know, I know, it shouldn't have done anything bad but look, you're gonna be pissed if you pull the head and everything is ok in there, the belt didn't jump time, etc. It takes 5 minutes to pull the belt if the belly pan is off and check it. If it's still locked up you've lost nothing as you have to remove the serpentine belt to do the rest of the job anyway.

When you put the head back on the easiest way is to do it with the cam OUT (thus no valves depressed.) Set crank to TDC and lock it. Then put the cam in with the cam at tdc (both lobes for #1 up and the slot aligned with the the head's deck.) Then lock the cam. Now you have the proper relationship for installing the new belt.

You can also align the cam to TDC (both lobes for #1 up, slot parallel with the head and deck) with the crank locked at TDC and install the head that way. Doesn't matter which way you do it; what's important is that with the cam installed and head on the crank and cam are BOTH at the TDC position; you either have to make sure both are correct before you put the head on, or you have to put the head on with the cam OUT of the head so all the valves are closed. That's absolutely essential as the valves will NOT clear if you rotate the crank and some of them are open!

Matty said:

Serpentine belt is still on, my wonder is what could fail from 2 seconds of max revs besides the internals on the engine, I'm thinking the IP might have slipped a during the runaway but I want to be sure there is no head/piston damage before I replace any other parts, once the head is back on and I'm 100% sure it's fine I don't mind spending some money, I really don't want to buy a new (2nd hand) engine though. @flee when you say it has to be synched I would need to alignt the crank to TDC, the cam pulley to TDC and the IP to TDC then the cam has to be synched? By the way I really appreciate all the replies from everyone!! You guys are awesome

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The jury is still out as to whether you need to do this at all.
Your time would be well spent reading up on the procedure before doing it.
The way the crank, cam and pump get aligned takes special but simple tools.
Many mechanics have just barged in without knowing exactly how to do it
and the engines end up failing either soon or in a few thousand miles.

Ok with the serpentine belt off the crank still doesn't move, I have done lots of reading and watched plenty videos, but they all seem to be TDC before the head is removed so I was a bit confused on that part, so I've taken everything off besides the head must just go buy timing tools and the hex for the head bolts when I have a chance..but I will be doing more research and printing the procedure of installing, just very certain I must have TDC right before I install, don't want to do something wrong but if I do I will just clean my hands and tow it to a mechanic and have them either rebuild or put in a new engine and just suffer money wise hahaha thanks again for all the input will advise once I have more feedback

Taking off the timing belt is not enough, remove the valve cover and take the cam shaft out. Do not try and force the crankshaft to TDC. If a problem is not apparent after removing the camshaft, then remove the head.


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^^ What he said.

Yes, the head probably has to come off, but take the cam out first. There's no reason not to since the head's coming off, and you'll get a nice look at the lifters which is likely to provide you with some rather bad (and obviously so) news.

TLH_TDI said:

Taking off the timing belt is not enough, remove the valve cover and take the cam shaft out. Do not try and force the crankshaft to TDC. If a problem is not apparent after removing the camshaft, then remove the head.


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Try turning the motor over after taking out the camshaft, if it still won’t turn remove the glow plugs and try again.


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Ok tried that no movement, pulled head third piston is damaged so bottom end needs rebuild, I'm either going to tow the car in to have it rebuilt or new motor or pull it myself and send to have it machined etc so no good news on my end

Biggest damage concern will be the head.


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If you have piston damage (I assume from impact) then you ALSO have to assume valve damage in the head, unless of course you found the source of the FOD in the cylinder and it wasn't a valve head

Why would the head be the biggest concern out of interest? The head looks okay, just the valves on third cylinder look like they have corrosion. FOD? That's a new acronym for me haha, I think the brief overheating managed to bend a Conrod if I were to guess because the piston looks like it's side it hitting the head, like 3mm is missing on the corner on top of piston. I'm really over working on the car though so I'm debating taking the bottom and top end to get machined by engineers or just taking it to a mechanic, just have to do some research and find a reliable person because the main reason for not wanting to do it myself is that I want it done 100% no f**kery , okay googled fod, Nah can't find any foreign objects in there the one glow plug tip was missing on that side so probably that

Often people say head they mean they head and all it's appurtenances.

Matty said:

Why would the head be the biggest concern out of interest? The head looks okay, just the valves on third cylinder look like they have corrosion. FOD? That's a new acronym for me haha, I think the brief overheating managed to bend a Conrod if I were to guess because the piston looks like it's side it hitting the head, like 3mm is missing on the corner on top of piston. I'm really over working on the car though so I'm debating taking the bottom and top end to get machined by engineers or just taking it to a mechanic, just have to do some research and find a reliable person because the main reason for not wanting to do it myself is that I want it done 100% no f**kery , okay googled fod, Nah can't find any foreign objects in there the one glow plug tip was missing on that side so probably that

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Aha.

I'll give you three guesses on what chipped your piston but I bet you only need one.....

PS: Guess where the pieces went? Probably out through the turbo. An examination of the exhaust wheel might prove interesting too.....

What do you guys rate about taking the bottom end off myself and sending it to be bored etc? Worthwhile or should I just give up and take it in?

The reason I say the head would be the biggest concern is, in a collision between a valve and piston, if that is what happened, when timing jumps a tooth or more, the valve usually looses causing head damage in the form of a small crack that might only be found using a pressure test at a machine shop, not a compression test but a pressure test on the head itself, or some other form of test. Unseen damage can be a big problem for the do-it-yourself-er once you have done all the work of a rebuild.

Matty said:

What do you guys rate about taking the bottom end off myself and sending it to be bored etc? Worthwhile or should I just give up and take it in?

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Well that's totally subjective, you'll have to determine if it needs it.

Matty, pictures would be helpful.
If you see cyl scoring that is deep enough to feel then you need to rebore, etc.
The bottom ends of TDI's are pretty robust though so make sure you actually do.
The cost of a full rebuild is going to be a lot more than buying a used block, too.

@flee there you can see the piston damage hope that pic is okay I will try get more pics tomorrow when it's daylight

Okay so basically I can find a reconditioned sub assembly for R10000 thats in ZAR, or I can get a complete engine for R12500 plus install which is R7000 but I'm thinking if I take out block and get head and block reconditioned myself it might save a bit of money, then I'd just need to get the timing tools but that's something that would be handy so don't mind spending money on that.. just a bit intimidating but I will see if I can find some guides tips etc before continuing, also the new engine route also comes with the hassle of going through police clearance etc

Also sorry had a busy day no time to get pics, also got another quote on rebuilding the engine for me they advised best case R15000 and worst case R35000 so I am leaning towards doing most of the work myself

The OP's original post stated he bought this vehicle quite cheap. Most of us here have zero knowledge of labour rates and access to gurus in South africa. I'm surprised no -one has cautioned the OP that this is in danger of becoming a money pit. I would have thought that seeking out another running 2003 and spending money on maintenance , rather that repair , would make most sense....... plus of course the existing car becomes a parts donor.

@miningman to give you perspective the car cost R30k and they usually go for R50 k in good condition so putting in R20k would be understandable to me considering the body is in much better shape than anything I can find online

Got quoted R3000 to take the block out and check what needs to be done so think I will get that done, he advised to have the whole engine redone would be R45k that's worst case. But that would include everything being replaced which I doubt needs to be done

Inspect the cylinder bores before removing the engine from the car.
If there is no scratch you can feel then the bottom end should be ok
and the work can be done without the added cost of r&r the engine.

Hey flee, did you manage to look at the picture? Just wondering if what you say is based on the pic thanks man you are very helpful