Finding TDC on #1 cylinder for timing belt help

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Recently had a timing belt break in my 2002 jetta tdi and when i looked for damage i found all of my lifters looked like the valve stems had tried to almost drive up through the center of them. So i figured i would take my time and tear this car apart myself as a learning experience and try to fix it. I Took the head off and had it cleaned and inspected and it came back ok with all new valves. I now have all the tools, parts, and manual to start putting it back together. But have a question need help with...

Since i had the head off i could inspect and clean all the piston heads best i could. And i have been turning the crank by hand to kind of study piston position when you line up the mark on the bell housing at TDC. When you do this and if the mark i was seeing was lined up correct at the bottom edge of the window on an automatic... the piston is a little lower then the top edge of the cylinder. Maybe a 1/4 or 1/2 inch. But as i keep spinning the crank over to clean the pistons i notice that the pistons still travel up to the very lip of the cylinder which doesnt seem like it would leave room for the injector tips, glow, plugs, or even valves that stick out just a hair out of the cylinder head and seems like it would surely make contact with those parts.

So my question is at TDC should the piston head be a 1/4 or 1/2 inch below the top of the cylinder and then start traveling down if the car was put back together and running? And if so what keeps it from traveling that last half inch or so up the cylinder to keep from contact with bottom parts of the cylinder head?? Or maybe im wrong about where the mark was all together and somebody can offer advice??

Any help or info appreciated.. thanks. Ill try to post some pics of what im talking about.
 

hollowhead

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Location
cope,sc
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon 5 speed(2)2000 vw beetle tdi automatic
What did your mark look like? It looks like -0-..
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Ok thanks. It. did not look like that and Thats what confused me as -0- is what manual shows.Now i am thinking i may have been looking at the wrong mark. What i was looking at looked more like a rectangular raised dimple. But maybe i flat out missed the mark i was supposed to be seeing. Im gonna look again tommorrow and try to post some pics. Thanks.
 

Metal Man

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Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Sunbury,PA 17801
TDI
1998 NB TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI, 2014 Tiguan gas, , 2019 E Golf X2
The mark on the automatics is pretty crappy. You will need to bring it to TDC and measure or check the piston protrusion to make sure the rods aren't bent, which it sounds like you've done. I would put the lower belt cover and pulley on and line up the marks there and then mark the torque converter so there is no doubt about TDC. And yes the pistons come up above the top of the block there is enough room for the injectors and glow plugs, but as you found out not for the valves when they are out of time.
 

TDI_Michael

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2002
Location
Louisiana
TDI
01 Golf GLS
I find the timing mark hard to see as well so I use an artists paint brush and a bright color mark on the tooth closest to the mark so I can tell when I am at the area. Then I still have to look closer and use a good light. Eyes are not as good as they used to be.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
When you look through the inspection hole (or whatever it's called) it looks like this:

|
0
|

The lines are pretty short. Error of parallax is easy to encounter. I tend to take pictures with my phone or camera -up close- and then look at the picture to figure if I'm close enough. I've only done one 01m, so can't say I'm an expert.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Hey thansks for all the info. Today i found out i was looking at the wrong mark and found the correct one. When i line that up woth the bottom of the window the #1 piston is just a hair above the lip of the block. Then starts traveling back down. And now looking at the pistons i see how the tip of injectors and glow plugs are safe. And feel better about finding TDC for aure. Having trouble figuring out how to load pics on here But i also have couple other questions.

Is there anything i will need to do differently than a normal timing belt replacement for locking the injection pump since my belt broke at 50 mph?? I was just wondering because i wasnt able to lock it as the old belt was on??

Also one of the bearing cap studs is messed up and looking for replacement but not having any luck really finding a similar one?? Most of what i am finding is more of a bolt form instead of a stud?? Im feeling like i might want to replace all ten of these. Im gonna look at local scrap yards but if no luck Does anyone know where i could find some for this engine?? Thanks all for the help.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Ok on AARodriguez i see Upgrade- PD cam cap bolts. What is in the cam bearing caps now is a stud with a nut up top. Would these bolts work to replace those. Thanks
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
I find the timing mark hard to see as well so I use an artists paint brush and a bright color mark on the tooth closest to the mark so I can tell when I am at the area. Then I still have to look closer and use a good light. Eyes are not as good as they used to be.
I use to buy cheap nail polish with the build in brush.
Back then I think I could find it for under a dollar.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Ok on AARodriguez i see Upgrade- PD cam cap bolts. What is in the cam bearing caps now is a stud with a nut up top. Would these bolts work to replace those. Thanks
No they do not work, PD cam bolts don't have a centering shoulder necessary for ALH rods. PD's use "cracked" rods that don't need cap centering bolts.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
I got all the parts I was needing and began putting everything back together. I am now replacing all of the timing components and getting to actually timing up the motor. I found my TDC and locked crank there, My cam shaft is also locked where it needs to be. My question now is about the injection pump. I see a slot where the sprocket and coupling of the pump meet... Is that what you are trying to lock in the pin or does the locking pin slide through into the body of the pump somewhere and lock it all together?? I wasn't able to lock the pump with the belt on the motor and in time because mine came apart so i was wondering how to go about finding where to lock in this pin. Thanks for any help.
 

hughesjasonk

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Location
New York
TDI
2002 Jetta MK4;
I got all the parts I was needing and began putting everything back together. I am now replacing all of the timing components and getting to actually timing up the motor. I found my TDC and locked crank there, My cam shaft is also locked where it needs to be. My question now is about the injection pump. I see a slot where the sprocket and coupling of the pump meet... Is that what you are trying to lock in the pin or does the locking pin slide through into the body of the pump somewhere and lock it all together?? I wasn't able to lock the pump with the belt on the motor and in time because mine came apart so i was wondering how to go about finding where to lock in this pin. Thanks for any help.
there's a specific hole that the pin fits in. if you are unsure take the gear completely off (the 3 bolts, not the center nut) so you can see every thing. When I did mine after my belt broke I used a drill bit so I was able to put on and off the sprocket as I pleased.
 

bbarbulo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2003
Location
Windsor, ON, Canada
yes, a standard (not metric) drill bit but I forget the size - think it was 5/16?

there is a keyway on the pump hub as you describe, that's the right spot on the hub. On the pump body, look in line with the top of the pump case. So on the floor, it's at the 12 oclock position, on the car it's at the 2 oclock position since the pump is mounted at an angle.

pic stolen off the internet

 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Use a mirror or a camera (snap and look) to see if you have the hole within range. I do this with everything I'm indexing so that I can be sure I've got things as they are supposed to be (with pictures you have it documented).
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
I got all the parts I was needing and began putting everything back together. I am now replacing all of the timing components and getting to actually timing up the motor. I found my TDC and locked crank there, My cam shaft is also locked where it needs to be. My question now is about the injection pump. I see a slot where the sprocket and coupling of the pump meet... Is that what you are trying to lock in the pin or does the locking pin slide through into the body of the pump somewhere and lock it all together?? I wasn't able to lock the pump with the belt on the motor and in time because mine came apart so i was wondering how to go about finding where to lock in this pin. Thanks for any help.
Glad everyone is helping you despite the fact this link was given to you to follow. There are three parts of the documentation and you need to sign up to be able to read the other two pages which contains the same information people are telling you in this thread.

Since you are doing a very precise thing with your car, read it completely to be familiar with the steps and procedure. Everything is spelled out. Even your last question about the injection pump. It has the same pics being posted.

If you don't have or bother to read a guide to complete the procedure then you are relying on the good graces and patience of this forum to get you easy answers. We all have to start somewhere, but you are not even trying.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
^^^ This!

The job isn't something that one does and gets it "close enough." If you don't pay attention it's pretty easy to really get messed up.

My first TB job I went over and over the procedures before I even started. I used them as I performed the work. AND, I used someone else's eyes to verify that I was doing things correctly: had a friend over -who knows nothing about any of this [no assumptions, just straight reading] and he double-checked each step as I went.

I take pictures of the crank, cam and IP positioning. This makes sure I'm not looking at something wrong- I verify via the pictures.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Thanks guys for help and pics.... and thanks jokila for the pleasant comment as i figured one like that be coming sooner or later. This project going on a while now and have a manual I'm following and studying for some time now but something about that injection pump had me hung up for some reason and what I'm doing on here is double checking so i don't screw it up. figure if I'm confused don't hurt to ask for help. But i got it figured out thanks to that mirror trick and the other members on here who offered help with pics and everything... Thank you. But got the timing belt on today and everything seems to be pretty good and i will have someone double check work. everything lines up good though and cranked the motor by hand a few times with no issues or problems. Looking forward to getting it back together and hopefully running.
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Thanks guys for help and pics.... and thanks jokila for the pleasant comment as i figured one like that be coming sooner or later. This project going on a while now and have a manual I'm following and studying for some time now but something about that injection pump had me hung up for some reason and what I'm doing on here is double checking so i don't screw it up. figure if I'm confused don't hurt to ask for help. But i got it figured out thanks to that mirror trick and the other members on here who offered help with pics and everything... Thank you. But got the timing belt on today and everything seems to be pretty good and i will have someone double check work. everything lines up good though and cranked the motor by hand a few times with no issues or problems. Looking forward to getting it back together and hopefully running.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and take your response as non-sarcastic. It wasn't meant to hurt your feelings.

I've been on here for a long time and learned a ton from this place. It's really the main reason I have owned my car for so long. For my way of learning, the manual sucks. It's not a detailed step-by-step book. It's a guide, but having people who have gone through the procedures can advance your knowledge many times faster.

Welcome to the club.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Hey guys I finally got the car running this week. Its running good. Now i am trying to check something else.. before the timing belt broke the temperature light would always come on as soon as i turned the car on and its doing the same thing now. I put in new coolant temp sensor and thermostat. and i also see flow coming back to my coolant reservoir. I also flushed out the radiator to make sure I wasn't plugged through it. But the hose coming from the thermostat to radiator always seems to stay pretty cool. almost like nothing flowing through it. It really may not even feel like it warms up at all. I can't figure out whats going on. But the car runs and doesn't overheat. Like i said the temp light comes on soon as i start it. I also notice 2 metal probe in the coolant reservoir and one seems pretty corroded. Could that have anything to do with it?? I bought the car from my brother and he also said that there are problems with the instrument cluster too. I never had a working temp gauge or fuel gauge. Whether there something going on there i am not sure...Anybody have any ideas what i could do from here?? Thanks
 

Metal Man

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Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Sunbury,PA 17801
TDI
1998 NB TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI, 2014 Tiguan gas, , 2019 E Golf X2
The lower hose should stay cool until you run it on the road a bit and the thermostat opens. If you have flow in the small hose to the bottle you should be in pretty good shape.
 
Last edited:

Genesis

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Location
Sevier County TN
TDI
'03 Jetta Wagon
Remove the connector from the coolant bottle and short the pins, then start the car. If the light does not come on replace the bottle; it's pretty cheap (under $50) If one of the pins is corroded that is probably the problem, but the easy way to be sure is to short the pins with the connector removed.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Ok so i checked some fuses and all seemed ok and i removed the connector from the bottle and shorted the pins. the light did not come on so i think I'm going to replace that bottle. Thanks . But also when i did that all the sudden my temp gauge and fuel gauge came back. My temp gauge climbs to 190 maybe a hair higher and stays there and Im still trying to figure out how accurate the fuel gauge is but its close.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
Ok so i checked some fuses and all seemed ok and i removed the connector from the bottle and shorted the pins. the light did not come on so i think I'm going to replace that bottle. Thanks . But also when i did that all the sudden my temp gauge and fuel gauge came back. My temp gauge climbs to 190 maybe a hair higher and stays there and Im still trying to figure out how accurate the fuel gauge is but its close.
I scraped the contacts in my bottle and it seems to work again.
The temp sensor is 2 parts.
One part for the gauge, the other for the ECU.
The gauge one will usually go to 190 and stay there while the ECU one is more accurate to the actual temp.
One winter (few years back) I watched the ECU temp and it stayed well below the 190 while the gauge was at 190.
Once the ECU temp was up I started getting real heat.
I was at least 10 miles down the highway at that point.
 

Kuhndog10

Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Location
Canton OH
TDI
02 jetta tdi
Where are you seeing the ECU temp?? I have been watching the gauge and it goes about 190 and been driving it with no problems. BUt without having that gauge for awhile i thought it might bot be accurate either. But it does respond as the car warms up. Where do you see the ECU temp you are mentioning??
 
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