CR140 Stage 3

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
All things being equal, more fueling=richer mixture= more soot. You're generally going to get more soot as performance is increased, along with higher egt's. Tuning is really the key factor once the right hardware is selected. I think coolusername will be fine so long as his tune parameters are good. There are 2L cars that come factory equipped with the cr170 turbo and DPF after all. Generally you're only using a small portion of the powerband for 90+% of everyday driving. Basically, good tuning is key.
 

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
I understand the XMan hybrid can push more air at the top end than the CR170. Hopefully that means I can run about 200 whp, emissions intact. That would be nice. My concern is that if I'm pushing this turbo, the amount of soot produced might substantially reduce the lifespan of the DPF.
Malone told me the Xman makes 10whp more top end than the normal cr170. Also if you install a cr170 or Xman maybe bigger turbos also a catch can will help with the excess oil. The cr170 makes a lot more aire pressure circulating the engine than the cr140. If you install a catch can in tdi cr140 turbo it not going to do much.
 

coolusername

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Joined
May 4, 2022
Location
Orange, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
One last question - does anyone have a part number or link for the required 4 bar MAP sensor? The search function is a bit useless, I couldn't find much. Thanks!
 

coolusername

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Joined
May 4, 2022
Location
Orange, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
If you are going to leave the DPF and EGR and want to get the Xman get the cr170 hybrid for emissions it's more expensive but you can leave the emissions intact.

2.0TDI CR140 CJAA CBEA 52mm billet CR170 100% bolt on hybrid
That's exactly the turbo I have bookmarked. I might end up deleting the DPF though, since posting about retaining emissions I found a cheaper pipe than I was expecting, from ProfiDiesel. Whatever my final decision on the DPF, I'm definitely keeping the EGR with the XMan, because then that turbo will also run well on the stock map with stock equipment for emissions testing. My full plan is an XMan CR170, 4 BAR map sensor, CP3 kit, and then I'm wishy washy on the downpipe. I also already have KermaTDI piping with the stronger boost clip setup, so I can probably keep the stock intercooler.
 

borninabus

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Feb 18, 2020
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Arizona
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-2013 JSW 6MT- -2006 Jetta DSG-

sauron18

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Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
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Jetta TDI DSG
That's exactly the turbo I have bookmarked. I might end up deleting the DPF though, since posting about retaining emissions I found a cheaper pipe than I was expecting, from ProfiDiesel. Whatever my final decision on the DPF, I'm definitely keeping the EGR with the XMan, because then that turbo will also run well on the stock map with stock equipment for emissions testing. My full plan is an XMan CR170, 4 BAR map sensor, CP3 kit, and then I'm wishy washy on the downpipe. I also already have KermaTDI piping with the stronger boost clip setup, so I can probably keep the stock intercooler.
If you live in CA will have to keep the DPF no?
 

coolusername

Veteran Member
Joined
May 4, 2022
Location
Orange, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
If you live in CA will have to keep the DPF no?
Beyond the emissions tests every two years, there is basically zero on-road enforcement. If you pass the test, you're fine. There are ways to pass the test. Alternatively, I could just take the DPF off and on every two years. The rest of my setup would be hypothetically fine once I flash back to stock; the CR170 would pass visual because it has a CR140 housing, and that's why I was asking you in the other thread about a CP3 without custom tuning.
 

J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140
Hi all,

Need some help, so i have a 2.0TDI Scirocco 2012 CFHC Engine code (oval ports) with the following mods:

Stage 1 Re-map (dyno read at 200BHP & 400nm Torque)
Custom exhaust
EGR Delete
DPF Delete

Last thursday my turbo gave up on me and i need to replace it, but im not sure what route to go down?

do i get a Hybrid CR140 which is quoted for 200-220BHP?

Can i get a CR170 standard turbo that i can put on and remap? is it a straight swap from the Garrett and Borg turbo?

Can i get a CR170 Hybrid that is a straight swap?
 

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
Hi all,

Need some help, so i have a 2.0TDI Scirocco 2012 CFHC Engine code (oval ports) with the following mods:

Stage 1 Re-map (dyno read at 200BHP & 400nm Torque)
Custom exhaust
EGR Delete
DPF Delete

Last thursday my turbo gave up on me and i need to replace it, but im not sure what route to go down?

do i get a Hybrid CR140 which is quoted for 200-220BHP?

Can i get a CR170 standard turbo that i can put on and remap? is it a straight swap from the Garrett and Borg turbo?

Can i get a CR170 Hybrid that is a straight swap?
I envy you... you have an oval port. This is the best turbo for your engine. You would need a cp3 pump to max out the turbo. Maybe with a good tune the cp4 could max out the turbo. In my case i have a cjaa or round port and the car was going into limp mode because the cp4 dosen't provide the pressure needed in the fuel rail. So i had to buy the cp3. Don't know if it will work with the same remap. Confirm with Xman about that and fitment.

This is the ultimate bolt on turbo upgrade for all the oval port 2.0TDIs on Golf mk6 platform based cars.
Garrett GTC1556vz hybrid turbocharger.
It started as a GTC1549vz CR170 unit, it has been fully rebuilt, and upgraded with large 56mm 6+6 CNC cut performance billet compressor wheel.
It can produce 220-240bhp running 2-2.1bar boost max
4bar MAP sesnor and proper custom tune/remap is recommended for best results.

2.0TDI CFGB CFH CFJ oval port Garrett GTC1556vz 230-240bhp hybrid turbocharger
 
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clannnabanna

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2011
Location
N.Ireland
TDI
Golf 1.9tdi (mark 5)
I've a 2012 Leon CR170 (oval port) with the following:
GTC1556VZ billet turbo (2.1 bar boost).
S3 alloy intercooler.
2.5 inch turbo back exhaust.
Backbox gutted out.
EGR delete.
Inlet manifold cleaned out.
Upgraded larger turbo outlet damper.
Boost gauge.
4 bar map sensor.
2200 bar rail pressure sensor.
Darkside uprated fuel regulator.

Getting it mapped (its currently on temporary map) with mods hoping 245bhp which is maxing out the standard fuel pump/injectors.
 
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J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140
Thanks for the details, decided on the falcon BV 40 Hybrid, spoke to the guys and they suggested 220BHP tune which will do me. Turns into a money pot when upgrading beyond the 240 mark as Clannabanna has stated. need to pump in a lot of money to go beyond that mark.

Wish i would have seen the reply from sauron for the x-man turbo as that does look good but its also £300 more (managed to haggle the BV40 Hybrid down by £75) so i guess its not all bad, 220 is good enough for me.

Need to put a 4 BAR MAP Sensor on, Question is do i need to mod any software for this or is it a plug and play?
 

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
Thanks for the details, decided on the falcon BV 40 Hybrid, spoke to the guys and they suggested 220BHP tune which will do me. Turns into a money pot when upgrading beyond the 240 mark as Clannabanna has stated. need to pump in a lot of money to go beyond that mark.

Wish i would have seen the reply from sauron for the x-man turbo as that does look good but its also £300 more (managed to haggle the BV40 Hybrid down by £75) so i guess its not all bad, 220 is good enough for me.

Need to put a 4 BAR MAP Sensor on, Question is do i need to mod any software for this or is it a plug and play?
The 220hp is the max power or peak power but there more for example power band. If you read the difference between the cr140 and the cr170 turbo the max power or peak power is small. For example my car stage 2 is 163whp (184bhp) / 295lb-ft (333lb-ft) and stage 3 is 183whp (206bhp) / 310lb-ft (350lb-ft). Only looking at that anyone would think there is not a lot of difference. Why pay more for a bit more power? The same could be said with the Falcon and the Xman but the powerband only looking at the specs of both turbo the Xman should be a lot better. The falcon have a 46mm billet compressor wheel and the Xman have 56mm 6+6 CNC billet compressor wheel so the top end should be a lot better. Also it can make more boost. Someone would think the falcon is 200-220hp and the Xman 220-240hp is only 20hp and more expensive not worth it but like i said. 46mm vs 56mm is a lot.

This is an example used in the thread of the cr170 upgrade stage 2 cr140 vs stage 3. Small increase in max power or peak power.



Edit: forgot to say for the price the Falcon is not bad by any mean. I think is a good option. It's based on the cr140 turbo? Is it a cr140 hybrid? If you have the money get the Xman i think is worth it if you want to max out the most of your car without going into big turbo. Another thing to consider is the more power the more you are reaching the limit of the cp4. In my case i was thinking of getting a cp3 this year but had to buy one last year because the cp4 couldn't handle the Xman cr170 hybrid for the cjaa or round port. So i spent a lot last year on the car. It was worth it but my wallet was crying.
 
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J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140
The 220hp is the max power or peak power but there more for example power band. If you read the difference between the cr140 and the cr170 turbo the max power or peak power is small. For example my car stage 2 is 163whp (184bhp) / 295lb-ft (333lb-ft) and stage 3 is 183whp (206bhp) / 310lb-ft (350lb-ft). Only looking at that anyone would think there is not a lot of difference. Why pay more for a bit more power? The same could be said with the Falcon and the Xman but the powerband only looking at the specs of both turbo the Xman should be a lot better. The falcon have a 46mm billet compressor wheel and the Xman have 56mm 6+6 CNC billet compressor wheel so the top end should be a lot better. Also it can make more boost. Someone would think the falcon is 200-220hp and the Xman 220-240hp is only 20hp and more expensive not worth it but like i said. 46mm vs 56mm is a lot.

This is an example used in the thread of the cr170 upgrade stage 2 cr140 vs stage 3. Small increase in max power or peak power.



Edit: forgot to say for the price the Falcon is not bad by any mean. I think is a good option. It's based on the cr140 turbo? Is it a cr140 hybrid? If you have the money get the Xman i think is worth it if you want to max out the most of your car without going into big turbo. Another thing to consider is the more power the more you are reaching the limit of the cp4. In my case i was thinking of getting a cp3 this year but had to buy one last year because the cp4 couldn't handle the Xman cr170 hybrid for the cjaa or round port. So i spent a lot last year on the car. It was worth it but my wallet was crying.
Interesting, thanks for the further explanation, think lead times and cost may have forced me to get the Falcon either way, any ideas what the standard billet size is for stock 140 and 170 turbos?

Im hoping going from the 140 standard to the 140 hybrid will give me a noticeable difference in power, i dont drive long distances in my diesel these days so maybe the smaller turbo might be better for lower boost (im probably just trying to justify it at this point haha)
 

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
Interesting, thanks for the further explanation, think lead times and cost may have forced me to get the Falcon either way, any ideas what the standard billet size is for stock 140 and 170 turbos?

Im hoping going from the 140 standard to the 140 hybrid will give me a noticeable difference in power, i dont drive long distances in my diesel these days so maybe the smaller turbo might be better for lower boost (im probably just trying to justify it at this point haha)
The cr140 comes with 44mm inducer or compressor wheel and the cr170 comes with 49mm. The Xman cr170 hybrid for cjaa is 52mm so 8mm bigger than the cr140.

2.0TDI CR140 CJAA CBEA CBAB BV43 52mm billet CR170 hybrid
 

J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
Had to get the falcon due to lead time of xman, yes the falcon is a hybrid.

To get full potential of the xman id need new pump and Injectors etc so it would be a fair old investment
Injectors no but new pump probably. My car with the Xman and cp4 stock pump was going into limp mode everytime i step on it. Had to get a cp3. The cp3 is worth it even more than a turbo upgrade but still is more money. The falcon seems like a good compromise cr140 hybrid for what i have seen is cheaper and new so is good. Let us know how it goes and when you install the turbo how the car feels and drive.
 

J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140
Injectors no but new pump probably. My car with the Xman and cp4 stock pump was going into limp mode everytime i step on it. Had to get a cp3. The cp3 is worth it even more than a turbo upgrade but still is more money. The falcon seems like a good compromise cr140 hybrid for what i have seen is cheaper and new so is good. Let us know how it goes and when you install the turbo how the car feels and drive.

Hopefully getting it back on Wednesday, got a new intercooler to fit also, new MAF sensor and then remap. Starting to snowball 😂
 

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
Hopefully getting it back on Wednesday, got a new intercooler to fit also, new MAF sensor and then remap. Starting to snowball 😂
Mine have an S3 intecooler the OEM one. Darkside is much more expensive. Works awesome for the Xman cr170. Will install a meth kit this year hopefully... maybe by the end of the year. Upload photos of the Falcon turbo to see it in person.
 

lemoncurd

Veteran Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Location
Eastern CT
TDI
2013 CJAA GTB2266
Hopefully getting it back on Wednesday, got a new intercooler to fit also, new MAF sensor and then remap. Starting to snowball 😂
and snowball it does..... when i upgrade my intercooler i will actually fit the air to water cooler from a CKRA rather than upgrade the air to air

darkside says the CKRA water to air cooler is good for beyond 300bhp... good enough for me imo, shorter boost path and if temps become an issue later on i can spray water meth
 

J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140
Seems like a better option definitely.

Does anyone have an answer to my other question regarding MAF Sensor? when upgrading to 4 Bar do i need to re-program anything in VCDS for example or is it a plug and play?
 

lemoncurd

Veteran Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Location
Eastern CT
TDI
2013 CJAA GTB2266
Does anyone have an answer to my other question regarding MAF Sensor? when upgrading to 4 Bar do i need to re-program anything in VCDS for example or is it a plug and play?
i know when you upgrade the MAP sensor you need to account for it in the tune. i am unsure about the MAF though.
@Xtremefunky swapped his MAF out for a bigger one, so maybe he can drop a couple idea's for you here
 

sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
Seems like a better option definitely.

Does anyone have an answer to my other question regarding MAF Sensor? when upgrading to 4 Bar do i need to re-program anything in VCDS for example or is it a plug and play?
Yes. You need to tune for the 4 bar map. If you put one and the tune for the normal one and put a 4 bar then the car will start in limp mode right away. Tuning on the engine limp mode. I happened to me. When i installed the Xman cr170. Malone told me to install a 4bar map. When the Xman was installed the car was starting into limp mode with the ECU with the tune Malone sent me. I sent Malone the codes or faults and it was giving the map sensor code. I think it was out of range or something with range, implausible range? So Malone told me to verify if the 4 bar map was installed. I asked the mechanic who work on my car and told me yes. Well i was in the shop and somehow i doubted that? I found the 4 bar map in a cabinet in the box an everything. I took a photo of it and compare it and yeah it was the 4 bar map stored in the cabinet. I told the mechanic so? I told you the car needed this.

https://www.cascadegerman.com/product/03k906051/
 
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sauron18

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Location
Dominican Republic
TDI
Jetta TDI DSG
this is why i prefer to do the work myself.... i have a hard time trusting even the good mechanics
Yeah man. If you have the tools and what you need to do a work. Do it yourself. When i installed the cp3 this year. A friend who is a mechanic helped me out but i was there. We installed the cp3 together. I also printed the guides to do it and brought the timing belt tools. So yeah the best is work on you car yourself.
 
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J20Joe

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Location
Leeds
TDI
2.0 Scirocco Cr140
Thanks for the help Sauron, Ive got the sensor so i guess ill plug it in in the car park just as im about to get it re-mapped :ROFLMAO:.

They arent able to start fitting my turbo until Monday now :sick:, least it gave me time to get a new intercooler as well
 
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