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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old January 28th, 2018, 17:20   #91
Jaestar3000
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Every battery company and science / engineering university is working on doubling the capacity and halving the charge times. VW and Tesla both announced 600 mile ranges in the next couple of years and Toyota says they're not doing EVs until they get charge times down to being comparable to fuel fill ups.

So it's happening and is only a matter of time until there's no debate on range or charge times, I'm betting by 2022.

Did you guys see the video of the Tesla X pulling an 18 wheeler up a hill in the snow a few weeks ago?
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Old January 29th, 2018, 07:54   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaestar3000 View Post
...from "well to wheels" there's hundreds of studies that say EVs still cut CO2 and general pollution over fossil fuels - even with mining and production and electricity generation....
Most studies conclude that EVs cut GHG emissions from a WTW perspective, but criteria pollutant emissions are much more mixed (generally lower VOC and CO emissions; higher PM2.5 and SO2 emissions).

See, for example:


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490

https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/...7/aer.20150897
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Old January 29th, 2018, 08:16   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxman View Post
Most studies conclude that EVs cut GHG emissions from a WTW perspective, but criteria pollutant emissions are much more mixed (generally lower VOC and CO emissions; higher PM2.5 and SO2 emissions).
See, for example:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490
https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/...7/aer.20150897
I'd like to know more about options for reducing those PM2.5 and SO2 emissions. Are there dirty manufacturing processes that can be cleaned up? Will the power grid getting cleaner reduce these emissions?
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Old January 29th, 2018, 08:50   #94
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I'd like to know more about options for reducing those PM2.5 and SO2 emissions. Are there dirty manufacturing processes that can be cleaned up? Will the power grid getting cleaner reduce these emissions?
Here are the GREET_2017 output files comparing the WTW emissions of EV and diesel vehicles using the latest U.S. electricity mix per EIA:







Note that in this case, SOx is much higher. PM2.5 emissions are higher for EV manufacturing than ICEV manufacturing:





Manufacture of batteries creates a disproportionate amount of the emissions in vehicle manufacturing.

These emissions will continue to decrease as the electric grid gets cleaner, including upstream emissions for ICEVs.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 11:46   #95
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Fortunately, market economics is forcing coal (the dirtiest power source) out of the grid mix at a fairly rapid pace:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/energyin...ost-important/
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Old January 29th, 2018, 11:50   #96
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Thanks wxman!
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Old January 30th, 2018, 13:46   #97
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If the major contributor to the SOX and PM numbers are due to coal, there will continue to be a reduction as coal draws down. Also noted are the significant differences in NOX and CO2 between EV and ICE, about half for EV. GREET doesn't seem to account for regional optimizations either, for example EVs being built and used in heavy Solar / Wind states, or factories that are net 0. I'm sure a significant source of emissions would be due to heavy trucks / equipment in mining and there just won't be a way around that for a while.

Thanks wxman
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Old January 30th, 2018, 20:36   #98
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Checking out what Tesla has for chargers from South Bend, IN to West Virginia it's all doable until after Morgantown, WV. Every year I go to either Elkins or Cass in WV. There are ZERO chargers in that part of the state! Now one can go to Weston (south of Morgantown on I-79) but from there it is 90-95 miles one way to Cass which would be close to a 200 mile range out and back. But add in fact hotels are in Elkins which is 50 miles from Cass - there's a 100 right there. Elkins to Weston is 40 miles. Now add in that the event I attend can go until 11pm and next morning starts at 7am or so. (Can't just show up any time - MUST be there at appointed time to ride a train!) So if I had a Tesla can just make it but would have to drive half the night and likely sleep in the thing as well just to get recharged. Not practical at all to do!

Yes, looked in opposite direction too. Can go from Cass to Mt. Jackson, VA Supercharger but that's 120 miles one way so is not feasible either.

This is a remote area of West Virginia - there is NO cell phone service in the Cass area due to the observatory in Green Bank. Probably going to be years before a Supercharger makes it to the Elkins area.

Obviously a TDI or gasser makes much more sense for road trips to Elkins/Cass area. I also sometimes head to Romney, WV but there at least a Supercharger is only 30 miles away in LaVale, MD (west of Cumberland) which also is where most hotels are. So Romney is at least practical and not pushing the range compared to Elkins/Cass.

Still a Catch-22 these days - won't buy a Tesla because there are not enough Superchargers and there are not enough Superchargers being built yet since there are not enough Teslas on the road. So question is how long before there are Superchargers spaced about every 50 miles or so which will make driving a Tesla much more practical?
Hey Robert,

I assume you’re going to Cass sometime during warmer weather for the historic railroad adventures. I need to get up there one of these days and ride one of the old steam engines.

There are a couple of route options that will get you there and back utilizing only the Tesla Supercharger network without relying on any sort of destination charging at hotels or stores.

You can take the Ohio Turnpike and head down I-79 or you can take the much more scenic and toll-free route through diagonally through Fort Wayne, Columbus and Parkersburg. If I were doing the trip, I would take the latter and avoid the expensive and boring turnpikes even though it’s slightly longer and slightly slower.

If you click on this link — https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...6-def53c07b6d1 — and click on PLAN ROUTE, you’ll see that the scenic route involves three Supercharger stops to get from South Bend to Cass and three more stops for the return trip.

The route above isn’t the most time efficient due to the long distance between the Grove City (Columbus) and Weston Superchargers. That requires charging closer to 100%, which is slower than charging to about 60% and adding an extra Supercharger stop. It takes as long to go from 80% to 100% as it does to go from 10% to 80%.

Feel free to poke around in A Better Route Planner and change some settings for head wind, weather and travel speed to see how those variables affect energy consumption and charge times. This trip can certainly be done in a long range Model 3 (310 miles EPA rated) in the spring, summer and fall. You could also do it in the winter, but it would require a route closer Supercharger spacing (that Grove City to Weston leg I mentioned above) to do it comfortably.

Total trip cost using Superchargers is $24, which works out to 2 cents per mile. If you round up to $30 to account for the energy used at your home, it comes out to about 2.5 cents per mile. That’s about half the cost of a TDI at 50 MPG with $2.50 per gallon diesel fuel. I honestly don’t know what the price of diesel is these days, but I think it’s at least that.

Note that the savings costs you a little extra time due to needing to charge. Total charge time for the round trip is just over 3 hours. If you factor in the food and restroom breaks that you’d probably taking anyway, the additional wait time would probably be under one hour for the car, and much of that would be due to the long charging stop to prepare for the Grove City to Weston gap. A more optimized route would save a little on charging time.
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Old February 12th, 2018, 10:25   #99
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Hey Lawson,

Sorry I haven't checked back in here sooner. Appreciate the info on a Tesla to Cass trip. Yes, this would be for a railroad related event. I generally go out there before or after the normal tourist season (before Memorial Day and after peak fall color) when the railroad can operate a special train that ties up the line for the day. So not quite during the warmer weather period...

It's always a quandary whether to use the turnpikes or not. Cost to use ones in Indiana and Ohio isn't too bad but Pennsylvania is $$$$ - but they are about the fastest way since they are more of a diagonal compared to the 'free' routes. Avoiding toll roads cuts cost but increases trip time by about 1 hour one way. Over the years I've gone a number of ways - some to see how I like a different route or just to keep from being bored going the same way every time. I find about the best compromise is using the turnpike thru Indiana and Ohio then use other roads to reach Elkins/Cass. Cheapest fuel is also along the non-turnpike portions in eastern Ohio - bonus! Diesel is usually about $2.75 or more along this general route so $2.50 is a bit on low side which makes Tesla numbers look even better.

That route planning site you linked I was unaware of. I based my estimate off the range of a Tesla and where chargers were shown on Tesla's own charger locator site. Obviously the link you provided is more detailed and accurate for planning a trip.

A Tesla or other EV is still a way off in my future but I like to keep informed on things so I can make better decisions when my TDI comes up for replacement which should not be for a few years yet.
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