DIY ECU tuning?

Got Bearings?

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Bob_Fout said:
There have been rumors of Jeff making flash loaders available.
That doesn't address being able to tweak your own tune for YOUR car.

With Jeff being really busy now without a flash loader, can you imagine how busy he'll be WITH flash loaders? His email box will be flooded... even moreso than it is now.... and I've seen it!
 

vwmikel

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Got Bearings? said:
That doesn't address being able to tweak your own tune for YOUR car.
I think at one time or another everyone has thought about putting something together to allow people to do their own tuning. And, it sounds cool...and while trying not to sound too arrogant here, what makes you think that you can do it better than a pro? Maybe you could do a better job than some cookie cutter tunes. Maybe you'll be at it for years just trying to get to the point where you could've been in a couple hours if you paid someone? Maybe you're just naturally gifted and you do an extraordinary job? There are just a lot of unknowns here and it is highly dependant upon your situation.
 

Got Bearings?

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vwmikel said:
I think at one time or another everyone has thought about putting something together to allow people to do their own tuning. And, it sounds cool...and while trying not to sound too arrogant here, what makes you think that you can do it better than a pro? Maybe you could do a better job than some cookie cutter tunes. Maybe you'll be at it for years just trying to get to the point where you could've been in a couple hours if you paid someone? Maybe you're just naturally gifted and you do an extraordinary job? There are just a lot of unknowns here and it is highly dependant upon your situation.
You have my intentions all wrong here. I will NEVER be better than a pro and I will gladly pay for one of their tunes. Where a DIY tuner comes in handy FOR ME is to tweak what has been already established - minor adjustments to get it a little better. With any canned tuned, even tailored for specific mods, there is power left on the table. It's not a knock on anyone but just reality. It's close... but I'd like it to be even better. Every cars responds differently to mods and a canned tune will not make the most of all the given mods.

Is the DIY tuning for anyone? HELL NO! I (we) have the potential to royally EFF things up. I'm aware of that and I'm willing to take that chance. I've tuned gassers and have confidence in my ability to slightly tweak things. I'm slow and methodical and research before I even touch anything. This is where forums can be helpful. Asking questions.. what does this do? what does that? By staying quiet, we all suffer.

For example, say you get a tune from ABC Tuner for XYZ mods and it smokes more than you're comfortable with and an IQ adjustment isn't enough. If I had a DIY tuner, I would back down the fuel. If I didn't know how to back down the fuel, then I could ask how to do it. Do I learn something in the process? Yes... does that make me a tuner? Far from it.

Do you see where I'm coming from?
 

vwmikel

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Got Bearings? said:
You have my intentions all wrong here. I will NEVER be better than a pro and I will gladly pay for one of their tunes. Where a DIY tuner comes in handy FOR ME is to tweak what has been already established - minor adjustments to get it a little better. With any canned tuned, even tailored for specific mods, there is power left on the table. It's not a knock on anyone but just reality. It's close... but I'd like it to be even better. Every cars responds differently to mods and a canned tune will not make the most of all the given mods.

Is the DIY tuning for anyone? HELL NO! I (we) have the potential to royally EFF things up. I'm aware of that and I'm willing to take that chance. I've tuned gassers and have confidence in my ability to slightly tweak things. I'm slow and methodical and research before I even touch anything. This is where forums can be helpful. Asking questions.. what does this do? what does that? By staying quiet, we all suffer.

For example, say you get a tune from ABC Tuner for XYZ mods and it smokes more than you're comfortable with and an IQ adjustment isn't enough. If I had a DIY tuner, I would back down the fuel. If I didn't know how to back down the fuel, then I could ask how to do it. Do I learn something in the process? Yes... does that make me a tuner? Far from it.

Do you see where I'm coming from?
This is where programs like lemmiwinks would be kind of nice on tdi's...but I think that just messes with the adaptations. I think that what you're saying is a good reasoning for loaders too. There are other ways to control smoke than just backing fuel down too. ;)
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
GoFaster said:
No, but there are some fundamental issues inherent in controlling a diesel engine, that Megasquirt in its current form does not address.

A gasoline engine with multipoint fuel injection has 2 independent but related pulse-output events that have to be controlled on each revolution. It has one output (to the ignition coil) for which the timing of the pulse is critical but the duration is not, and it has one output (to the fuel injector) for which the duration is important but the timing is not.

A diesel engine, whether P-D or common-rail, has a single pulse-output event (the injector) which is critical in both timing and duration. If you are talking about a common-rail engine, modern applications use multiple shots of fuel per injection cycle. Yeah, the engine will RUN if you give all the fuel in one shot, but it will sound like a '92 Dodge/Cummins (pre-electronic injection).

Furthermore, the electrical characteristics of a P-D or common-rail piezo injector are unlike those of gasoline injector solenoids or ignition coils.

I'm not saying that it isn't possible for a non-OEM engine controller to be developed. All I'm saying is that the current version of Megasquirt won't do it.
really? the current version with an add-on board supports coil-on-plug ignition with a ford type crank trigger, which means 8 separate coil outputs, AND sequential injection which is 8 separate injector outputs, all of which need to be timed specifically... It can control fuel mixture independently on each bank with the use of 2 wideband sensors, along with simple stuff like controlling fans and shift lights, rev-limiting via spark, fuel, or a combination f the two. Fueling limitations via MAF, MAP, or both. Closed loop boost and idle control, etc... MUCH more inputs/outputs than a typical ALH/AHU/1Z needs to function..
 

durallymax

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I think a custom tuning software would be great for the TDIs.

I do all of my own tuning on my Duramax and tuning for others as well. But i dont do a lot of it for one reason, a lot of people can get annoying and also when somebody doesnt live close and the tune needs to be updated its a pain for them to drive all the way back to me.

The software I use, as well as many others, is EFI Live. Its great.

The basics of tuning to add a few horsepower are easy. Anybody can add more pulse width, advance the timing some, and up the fuel rail pressue. But to really get a tune dialed in perfect, it takes an experienced veteran.

There is alos the fact that custom tuning software allows you to destroy things. There are no safety parameters in it. I made a huge goof last winter. After putting on the big turbo and many other mods the truck was down for about two weeks. We got no sleep for those two weeks and when we were loading it on the trailer for the pull we had been going on about 30 hours straight. I forgot one minor thing though, to alter the tuning for the new turbo. Due to this messup my timing was still ridiculously high as the tune was built to use all of the fuel when I had a stock turbo. The combination of the high timing, added fuel from modded CP3 and twice the amount of boost from the new turbo bent the rods instantly. All because I forgot to take a little bit of time to alter the tuning.

Understanding what each table means is the first step, then learning how each table works with the other tables is the next step. Then learning how to tie it all together to make good clean power is the next step. It takes awhile.

Ive been at it for 3 years and still dont consider myself a pro, but i dont sit on my tuning software all day either.
 
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keaton

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well i found some good information on the EDC15 DME (DP cars) I'd like to post.... how can i add an attachment to the thread (PDF)
 

flatlanded

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Interested, definately will keep up on this thread.

Main reasons being I like doing things myself and I like to learn, is that so wrong?
 

NB_TDi

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flatlanded said:
Interested, definately will keep up on this thread.

Main reasons being I like doing things myself and I like to learn, is that so wrong?
It's not wrong. But some, not all, tuners keep their work quite private. I have an understanding; but when someone is interested in the dirty work, some professional courtesy would be nice.
 
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great thread keaton if u tune your own cars u are a tuner arent you? thought that the point of forums is that we all good at different aspects of tuning collectively we learn each other the goal is to make are car faster and more powerful money shouldnt come in to it if your in it just for the money then your not really a tuner at all!
 

Dakta

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I am a DIY tuner. Well a DIY tinkerer. I like to play with circuits, build pic projects, and I really enjoy the challenge of making control systems. Not an expert, but i'm happy with things like multimeters and assembly programming. This led me onto playing with my own tunes on my rover sdi, fairly simplistic msa11 ecu.

This was actually rather succesful. I didn't have the right turbo at the time, but i'm fixing it, and hopefully i can make a decent tune when that's all bolted up and sorted. Would I do it for other people with rovers? Can't say I wouldn't. I'm happy with what I know so far, and i've chewed my way through most books on the subject that I can find (including a few with a yellow 'theme).

At the same time though, you have to respect the industry. There is absolutely little benefit to anyone, for someone selling remaps at say, £50. Okay, someone gets a cheap remap, and someone else potentially makes £40 profit out of it. I'm not here to say every diy remap is crap, nor am I here to say that you'l 'kill' an ecu, but even then the damage is being done to the industry.

The tools take considerable expertise to make, okay, clones are cheap but what if there were nothing to clone? The people with the brains have to be paid, do they not deserve a fair wage? Undercutting the industry may work, but is it the responsible thing to do in the current economical climate?

The way out of this hole, is by all accounts do things properly. Make a fair product, make a fair service, and sell at a fair price. And that doesn't always mean bargain basement. Skill has to be rewarded. The world cannot thrive without this concept.

When I'm not tuning cars, I'm helping run a road maintenance company. In the last year many companies have launched themselves undercutting our prices. Our customer base is still satisfactory, despite the hard times because despite having a year of hell, we have kept standards up, and most of our clients would prefer the consistent service. I beleive good business can be built around a fair price, and i think anyone trying to make 'bargain basement business' has real potential to inflict damage to other businesses aswell as their own profit margin. This isn't about individuals, it's about being responsible for ourselves and others.

It might be a strange attitude to take, but I think every single road maintenance company that tried to undercut us would have been better off standing firm and in line with our own prices. Tuning isn't all about money of course, and I do apologise if i've gone off on a tangent, but it is a concern that gets raised a lot in conjunction with people doing their own and others remapping.
 
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Piranha

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I'd like to mod my tune for exactly what i need to (as many other people here would like to do)
I also have little time to learn all that is needed, although I really want to (like many people here too)

I'm also capable of building my own engines and having them run, well with results that have even surprised me (like many people here too ) ALSO with alot of help on this forum (yes you get it, like alot of people here)

Now imagine this:
how much would you pay for the following:
a good custom tune (as is already available from many tuners)
a tool to flash your ecu (like kwp2000 first tool to spring to mind)
But with 1 big difference.

The flashing software would allow basic paramiters to be altered by say a max of 10% from tuner's file.

The XX% limit would add a saftey factor (to a certain extent)
an end user can modify their tune (this does not make them tuners, but that little bit more can be acheved )

Someone mentioned lemmiwinks further up the thread.

Wouldn't a TDI version of lemmiwinks be a welcome addition??

Would a tuner be interested in something like this?
 

ArturCosta

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What I sometimes do in some cases is leave a margin for at least more fuel in the torque limiter so the client can add or take fuel if they want and if the add to much it wont have problem because the limit is on another map so he will never have too much fuel.

For boost its also the same thing... leave the single value limiter to a safe value and let the client fool around with the boost map.

More then this I think its too complicated to explain in short time how to modify in the maps.
 

Piranha

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Artur,

That would be a good start,

How difficult would you think it would be to embed that setting into a program that would be easy for the end user to control.
With maybe some visual cues (inc sliders (like the volume control in windows))
 

Dakta

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Well for what it's worth I do agree more or less and think tuning should be opened up for those willing to learn tuning in a poper manner.

As for making a solution that could alter fuelling etc with sliders, I really think the easiest way is a graphical representation of the map and good accurate descriptors of it's axis and what it does and how it influences other maps.

It still wouldn't be straight forward, but it would be reachable with enough enthusiasm. I've nothing against diy tuners, (I AM one!) so within limits anything that can be a useful help is a help generally speaking. I think the best route to go down though is to learn the system properly though, rather than nice fancy 'gooeys' that hide the technical stuff.

But there's a lot of unknowns, the solution would for example have to recalculate the checksum of files and such, which isn't impossible to do but might be one of the technicalities that make it less feasible.
 

MayorDJQ

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mrchill said:
Tuning like everything else requires a certain skill to be proficient at. Tuners WILL protect their market vigorously. IN the end, they will lose to the folks who like open source tuning\editing. The ones who are really gifted, have nothing to fear from such groups. They will always be ahead, and available for a fee (of course) to fix the mistakes made by those with inadequate knowledge. Its just like auto repair. Most everyone (at least on sited like this) do their own brakes, many do their own turbos, injectors, oil changes and so on. That market was badly diluted so that auto repair places cant make money easily. Of course....shops were "thieves" for charging for "simple" repairs that most have to read a how to to accomplish and still need help. Just like you said about tuners. They are "thieves" for charging for their work and experience. But like auto repair shops...the tuners will fall as well. BUT again, like a gifted mechanic, a gifted tuner NEVER has to worry.
Well said, CHill.

The good pro tuners are like Michelangelo.

The not so good are, well, not so good.

Da Vinci probably spins in his grave every time someone buys a Mona Lisa Paint-By-Numbers.....aka DIY.

What would be nice is an option through the MFA to go from Economy mode to Highway to Sport tuning by just pressing a few buttons.

(Any VWaG spies reading tonight?)
 

DJGonzo

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OK guys the OP hasn't logged in or posted in a while... For DIY tuning you guys need a tool called Galletto (they sell cheap knockoffs in eBay). You need to dump your ECU's EEPROM and modify the maps. The learning curve is ridiculous though. I wish I could experiment personally but I have the 99.5 ECU (non-flashable). I am going to get some spare ECU's from the scrapyard and see if I can bench flash them.
A great place for information is http://www.chiptuners.org/
 

DJGonzo

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Dakta said:
Not all of us ;) what I need is a decent soldering iron! :p
Haha I heard that. Galletto is easier to use (and easier to fry ECU too) :p:D
NB_TDi said:
Chiptuners.org hasn't been updated in awhile. Their forums are down too.
They are online right now... They might be updated but it still is a great resource for map locations and dumps to play with :D
 

NB_TDi

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DJGonzo said:
Haha I heard that. Galletto is easier to use (and easier to fry ECU too) :p:D

They are online right now... They might be updated but it still is a great resource for map locations and dumps to play with :D
I'm on their site right now. I get a 404 error when clicking on archives and forums. Also the last blog post was from 2 years ago.
 

DJGonzo

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NB_TDi said:
Upon closer inspection, I get a 403 Forbidden error. Great. I'm trying a different PC.
Ahh...

Well let's go everyone! Lets get the ball rollin' Anyone that has any dumps of TDI ECU's, post em!
(Please no tuned ECU's from tunners. Just stock and home made tunes)
 
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