Incorrect timing/smoke at cold start until 180 degrees F

I think I mentioned this before, but there is a bundle of wires comes across the front near the starter under the battery and up a wire race towards the ECU. Many of the wires in that bundle are engine controls.

Nevada_TDI said:

I will try to keep this post as short as is possible. You consistently go from bad to good at the same temperature all the time; you mention there was an accident involving the front end, here is what has been burning on my mind for days:

Years ago there was a woman that lived in one of the local rural valleys and was having phone problems; every time the weather got cold her phone did not work but the local phone company only held daytime hours and during the day the phone always worked.

After many, many, unresolved phone tech trips to her area (the phone company thought she was imagining things) one technician set up a test rig to run on her phone after dark, and lo and behold after dark her phone did not work. The lady was right after all, there was a wire with a crack/break in it that when warm made contact, and when cold shrank back just enough to have no contact in the phone line.

My point is you may have a wire chaffed somewhere that is not obvious, and when the engine/pump/wiring get warm the chaffed portion moves away from whatever it is touching and stops causing the problem. Just a thought.

Here is another thought: disconnect the #3 injector connector when the engine is cold and see if anything changes, with the engine being hot or cold. The #3 injector wires do fray, cause issues, and do not always throw a code in the process leaving the owner scratching their head. I just went through a bad #3 injector that was causing me tons of grief and did not throw a code until it was completely dead.

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Fixed it.

aja8888, what did you fix, the problem or my post?

Nevada_TDI said:

aja8888, what did you fix, the problem or my post?

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Your post (paragraphs). (I have way too much time on my hands today! )

They don't send donkeys to school because nobody like a smart one! j/k
Yes my post did need some clarity, thank you.

I understand what you are saying Nevada.
I hear you well.

Today, I did steal the MAF off the beetle.....put it on the troublesome Jetta......no difference.

I got frustrated and pulled out all the injectors. What I wanted to see is if #2 piston was still wet on top....it is.

What I think is that the #2 deliver valve is not working properly.

I disassembled the delivery valve and it is VERY different than the old 1.6's I am familiar with (I bet you're getting tired of me saying that). These later delivery valves have this little wimpy spring in them that looks like I could fatigue it with a good dose of flatulence.

I used carb cleaner in it while it was apart. I reassembled it and ran out of daylight....and any warmth in the air.

Cleaning my old delivery valves never did me any good. So, I am gong to head over to the classifieds and try to find a couple or so.

Does anybody know.....are 10 mm and 11 mm pump delivery valves the same item??
Thank you.

As frustrating as this issue is I'm thinking that it's of immense value. Prairieview, thank you for your persistence here. And everyone else, what a great collection of minds/info! OK...

Can one swap around those delivery valves? If so that would be an easy(?) test. (needs new washers?) I recall someone else having what I believe was actual blockage. If it's a delivery valve issue then this is going to present yet another thing to watch out for!

My son picked up a 99.5 Jetta with the ALH 5 speed and we have been fighting this issue except our car does not need to get to 180f to run smooth. It will start fine, Idle smooth but if you rev it up past 2000 RPM's the car starts to stumble and will stall, trying to restart is takes about 10 seconds and will start but idles rough for 30 seconds. I have owned and built 6.5 chevy diesels and have built a fully stroked out 6.0 ford but this is the first time working on a TDI

Thing we found and what we did.
I pop tested injectors and 2 failed, cleaned and rebuilt pop correctly good spray pattern.
checked IQ and timing IQat 3.8 timing dead on.

compression test performed 1:350 2:365 3:425 4:430 Removed head and found ring land broken on piston #2 replaced piston with a good one from old block from another engine. replaced all rings in all pistons.
Compression check again 1: 425 2:430 3:420 4: 425
Also checked main bearing found bearing 1 and 2 spun but no crank damage, changed all bearings along with the bearing caps for 1 and 2, all bearing within manufacture clearance spec. also inspected for bent rods all rods are perfect.

while head was off removed cam and used a micrometer to measure the lobes and found 1 and 2 to be worn by over 100thousand replaced cam with stock cam, also inspected lifters and they were in good working order.

Start engine and it idles perfect no knocking but still has grey/white smoke and smells of diesel Rev it up and it large amounts of smoke and then it dies, restart let it idle and after 3 minutes drive car and it runs perfect drove it 200 miles no issue.

next morning after cold soak ( 16 degrees) car starts right up but if you try to drive it heavy smoke and dies till it warms up.

Glow plugs tested and working,

temp sensors all working and checked with VAGCOM

Cold start advance timing commanded to 8 degree actual 8 degrees. ( I think this proves out the N108 as good.)

MAF test good with VAGCOM but still swapped with known good one No change.

Removed all delivery valves found the one for cylinder#1 to be damaged, replaced it from spare pump along with case pressure valve. No change in operation.

Checked oil pressure at filter housing and it will rise to 70 psi and pressure regulator opens dropping oil pressure to 65 psi, I thought maybe the lifters were overpressurizing overcoming the lifter spring pressure allowing the valves to remain open until the oil warmed and thinned out.

rechecked mechanical timing of cam/crank and it is dead spot on.

Ran 2 bottles of diesel purge directly thru engine.

Removed turbo and cleaned vanes it functions and works fine.

replaced all vacuum line.

Car has intank lift pump and I see no air in lines.

At this point I am not sure what is causing this and will continue to go over the engine I think the next step will be to clean up the injection pump from a old motor we have sitting around and replace it.

I know this was long but I hope this helps someone else out who is having the same problem.

You wanna buy another one????
Man, I can make yer dreams come true.........

When I had this problem, it turned out to be a bad valve seat on the newly reconditioned head.

The car would blow smoke until it reached 190 degrees and then it was like a switch flipped and it ran perfect.

This is my thread from years ago. In the end, I replaced the motor. I should have listened to Frank06. He called me after reading my thread and new it was a bad valve job. I sent him the head and he fixed it immediately.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=152410

bulldogger1 said:

When I had this problem, it turned out to be a bad valve seat on the newly reconditioned head.

The car would blow smoke until it reached 190 degrees and then it was like a switch flipped and it ran perfect.

This is my thread from years ago. In the end, I replaced the motor. I should have listened to Frank06. He called me after reading my thread and new it was a bad valve job. I sent him the head and he fixed it immediately.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=152410

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You did an autopsy of the (repaired) head after this post?:

bulldogger1 said:

Update. The damage to the motor was more severe then amyone knew. Low compression on cylinders 3 & 4 was causing the problem. The only thing we could attibute it to was bad rings but when I pulled out the pistons the rings spun freely.

I bought a motor out of a 2003 Bettle and swapped them this weekend.

What a job.

I couldn't hasve done it without Brian's (alphaseinor) help. He ia a real workhorse and the swap went perfect. It's nice to have it back to normal after 4 months.

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Confused as to what was the real source (head or rings).

bulldogger1 said:

When I had this problem, it turned out to be a bad valve seat on the newly reconditioned head.

The car would blow smoke until it reached 190 degrees and then it was like a switch flipped and it ran perfect.

This is my thread from years ago. In the end, I replaced the motor. I should have listened to Frank06. He called me after reading my thread and new it was a bad valve job. I sent him the head and he fixed it immediately.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=152410

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Your thread says a shop found low compression but you had no idea as the rings moved freely you than swapped out the motor, so was it rings or valve seat?
If valve seat was it on the cylinders with low compression? I have perfect compression both when I tested the engine after a 24 hr cold soak at 17degree outside temp and when I did compression test on it after a full warm up and 100 mile drive.

Prairieview said:

You wanna buy another one????
Man, I can make yer dreams come true.........

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One white whale at a time LOL, Plus I am enjoying the journey to learning these TDI's. We have a complete performance engine my son built sitting in his old car that got wrecked and we bought this one to swap that motor into but have since decided to find a Audi TT quattro convertible and do a TDI swap into that.

This we want to make a daily no modded out of and sell it when the TTis complete.

After the motor swap and my car was running again, we put the reconditioned head on another running car and it did the same thing. It blew clouds and clouds of smoke until it reached temperature then suddenly ran perfect with no smoke.

The head was then sent to Frank06 for a proper diagnosis and repair. He informed me of the poor job my Local shop did and fixed the head. It was a long time ago but if memory serves, there was an issue with the valve guides as well. The tolerances were off and when the car heated up everything sealed up. No more smoke after that and car ran perfectly instantly.

There were no issues with the piston rings.

Hope you get yours fixed soon.

Thanks that clears things up, I guess it is time for a leak down test, I figured with the great compression numbers and the fact it idles perfect with no smoke that my valves and guides/seals were good. But who knows at this point I will check anything that sound feasible

Performed the leak down test and as expected by the compression numbers I had less than 10% on each cylinder, I started considering everything done, and concluded engine mechanical is perfect, I know the injectors are clean and pop off at proper pressure, No air bubbles in fuel lines so fuel is good Timing spot on, IQ at 4, SO what could be the problem, Air is all I could think of but what could change when it warms up? So I checked the EGR pipe from the exhaust manifold to the EGR cooler and found a crack in the baffles, I ordered a new one from ID parts, Installed it this morning ( 34F outside) started car and NO MORE SMOKE car reved up with no stalling, went immediately for a drive and it ran perfect NO miss, no stumble.

So at this point my problem turned out to be cracked EGR cooler Pipe reducing the speed of the turbo and causing a lower pressure.
Thanks for the Idea guys and Merry Christmas

Glad to hear you got it sorted! That sounds like a great Christmas present!

Merry Christmas and have a safe holiday period.

Glad to hear your problem is resolved!

What is an EGR snake delete? Was the cooling removed, or the vacuum lines and electrical, or both? So the exhaust was still flowing through the EGR even though it, or part of it, was disabled? Or I guess, even if the space ship were stuck closed, the exhaust would still push gases through the cooler to the EGR, escaping out of the crack, if the cooler was not blocked off.

jackfolstam said:

Glad to hear your problem is resolved!

What is an EGR snake delete? Was the cooling removed, or the vacuum lines and electrical, or both? So the exhaust was still flowing through the EGR even though it, or part of it, was disabled? Or I guess, even if the space ship were stuck closed, the exhaust would still push gases through the cooler to the EGR, escaping out of the crack, if the cooler was not blocked off.

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My car does not have an EGR snake delete and I don't even know what it is, The one I was dealing with is all stock The crack in the tube was allowing the exhaust gases to escape to the atmosphere and gas being a liquid will take the path of least resistance and this path has less resistance than the turbo thus spooling the turbo slower and at one point almost not at all, This created less airflow for the engine thus the incomplete combustion. When the pipe would warm up the crack would seal allowing normal operation of the turbo. When you do a EGR delete you block off this pipe once again allowing normal turbo operation. I posted my fix in the hopes it helps out the original poster.

Finally found my way through the Antarctica conditions where this 2002 of mine is parked, installed totally different fuel pump and...........

.....nothing changed. Must be computer or wiring.....wiring looks fine.

2 questions:

1) Which computers will fit and work on this 2002 Jetta automatic.....what years (all ALH's?) (Beetles, Golfs, Jettas?). Do the letter designates following the part number on the computer matter? I believe I have seen "N" and "DK" etc.? No, I have not dug to get at the one in my car yet.

2) If this car was struck my lightening, prior to me owning it, could it manifest as the "smoke until 180 degrees" problem I am having?

Yes, I realize a different computer will require immob. delete.
Same as before: once the temp gets to approx. 180....it runs fine.

Wutza "EGR snake delete"? In first post OP says he did it.

6.0 Says an EGR system problem caused his similar but not identical problem.

Can Prairie's problem be related to this delete? ECU trying to recirc exhaust for warmup but it isn't happening causing smoke???

You may have two different problems going on. The warmup issue and #2 not firing at idle.

Save me some looking, does the #2 idle issue resolve once warmed up?

Have you tried swapping the #2 injector with another? And maybe the #2 delivery valve with a third cylinder if you really suspect it's bad.

Say #1 injector and valve in #2, #2 valve in #1 and #2 injector in #4. That would give you good parts in #2, the suspect cylinder, and one suspect part in each of two good cylinders.

The egr is removed.
The car displayed the identical symptoms when I arrived at Colorado and picked the pos up. At that time, the egr was intact.

Injectors have been swapped with an entirely different set.
No, there are no codes other than the check engine for the egr.

How about just answering my question regarding interchangeability of computers?

I think my problem may well be in the computer "thinking" it is performing properly when the heck it is not. Hence: my question re: a lightening strike.

Which years and models computer will fit this 2002 Jetta with auto?
Simple question....needing simple answer.

If you're speaking of the ECU it needs to be a part number match. It might be the same as the '03.

Well, my friend in Ohio swapped his 2001 ecu into his 2003 wagon with no probs. They were both Jetta's...the former a sedan, the latter a wagon.

That was like 2 years ago.

Are you really sure of interchangeability? My guess....no.

Anybody else?

Prairieview said:

The egr is removed.
The car displayed the identical symptoms when I arrived at Colorado and picked the pos up. At that time, the egr was intact.

Injectors have been swapped with an entirely different set.
No, there are no codes other than the check engine for the egr.

How about just answering my question regarding interchangeability of computers?

I think my problem may well be in the computer "thinking" it is performing properly when the heck it is not. Hence: my question re: a lightening strike.

Which years and models computer will fit this 2002 Jetta with auto?
Simple question....needing simple answer.

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How about a better attitude toward people wasting their time trying to help you?

If I knew the answer to that question I would have given it.

Sorry I didn't recall that you had swapped injectors. Moving the delivery valve to another hole would still be tell you something.

Been thinking about this. The ECU only controls a few things. Glow plugs, timing, IQ, EGR, and TC. Anything else?

Your problem repeats, or clears up, regularly.

How about logging these things around the time the idle smooths out to see what changes. Seems to me you should see something if it is indeed the ECU causing it.

In your 1st post you mentioned:
"The damage included the fiberglas radiator support, radiator, fans, hood, passenger fender, bumper guard, headlights, power steering pump pulley. The car had sustained light impact. None of the intercooler associated parts were damaged (the frontal intercooler ducting was still fine!).

None of the wiring harness appeared damaged."

No one knows what could be the problem from damaged wires that are covered.
The wires in all our cars old and the insulation getting fragile with age.

Also:
"IMMEDIATELY upon reaching 180 degrees F on the dash temp, it starts running properly"
Maybe log the as many engine blocks as you can starting while it's blowing gray smoke through the 180 degree change for another minute.
Import the log into Excel (or other spread sheet) to see what numbers change drastically.
Could be a clue.

Log some data, what a good idea!