ALH - Quick cold starts but runs rough until warm

UhOh

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Dec 24, 2014
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Verified the rumor that the daughter's wagon (auto) runs rough when first started. The engine fires off nearly instantly. Then it stumbles and runs pretty rough. I have not had enough time to see at what point it smooths out: all reports is that it does as it starts to warm up.

This car is kind of an outcast in that I don't have ready access to it. It is now in my possession for a full suspension refresh and some other things (not related to engine).

Here is some history/observations (all work has been performed by me):

- No codes (Ultragauge recently installed and I saw nothing coming up on it);
- Replaced TB;
- Compression test showed very good cylinder-to-cylinder balance (well within spec), readings with cheapo tester were all above 500 psi;
- Replaced MAF (previous one was a bit weak per VCDS);
- Timing set max advance (following TB job);
- Swapped out auto injectors w/manuals (from wife's car-known good & with commensurately same mileage);
- Injector deviation good (need to double-check, but I believe it was good);
- IQ around 1.8 - 2.4? (I lost my notes; I seem to recall it being low; was waiting until after the tune to adjust);
- CTS replaced (son did this job);
- Malone Stage 1 tune (just done within last two weeks- problem proceeded this, was hoping that the tune might magically fix)

Nearly all threads/discussion related to rough running when cold all seem accompanied by difficulty in starting. This car, as noted earlier here, starts instantly: I don't know if I've ever experienced a car that starts more quickly. Because of this I figured that this situation was worthy of creating a new thread.

I'll be posting observations and what changes I undertake. Right now it's not a high priority (suspension work will be). Figured I'd give a little time here for things to brew; maybe someone has had this exact situation. Off the top of my head I plan on doing:

1. Unplug MAF (this is stumbling just like my wife's car did when that car's MAF totally crapped out- it was running pretty much fine and then its MAF just completely crapped out- was stumbling/shuddering and just as soon as I unplugged the MAF it smoothed right out- NO CODES!);
2. Verify timing is still holding (fact that it runs so darn well would tend to say so, but need to see actual numbers);
3. Do a full scan with VCDS (again, not seeing anything being reported);
4. Unplug CTS;
5, Verify fueling (check thermo-T [fuel filter change recently]).

There's no clear fuel line on this thing, which kind of leaves me in the dark on the fuel side of things. Not sure if no clear lines is common with auto-trans cars or not.
 

csstevej

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2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
I'd try adjusting the IQ to between 3-4, kinda low for and auto, espically since you put the manual nozzles in ( more fuel )..... Just my .02.
Easy enough to do.
 

Nevada_TDI

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Reno, sort of...
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2001 Jetta TDI
I agree with steve^^^ that IQ sounds pretty low and would likely run pretty rough when cold; I think somewhere in the low 4 range will be the ticket. You did go to a larger nozzle so raising the IQ a bit is safe bet.
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I had a grand total of 5 minutes with the car: had been hoping to have it here for several days but the *******s at the border wouldn't allow the son to drive one of my cars across, so he had to come back and get the wagon.

Car started instantly, then started going into a loping, bucking and jerking mode. I was running for a minute or two and then decided to pop off the connector to the MAF. Settled right down. No codes other than the P0102 that I triggered by unplugging the MAF.

If I'd had more time I would have hooked up VCDS and looked at the full performance of the MAF. I was able to take it for a quick spin, mostly out of curiosity of how it is with the new tune, and it runs really strong.

Because the roughness goes away once warm I'm wondering whether this is a connection issue, that it makes a better connection once warm? But, wouldn't this, a marginal connection, trigger a code? I'd slathered dialectic grease on the connector when I replaced the MAF.
 

UhOh

Top Post Dawg
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
WOW, just WOW! The word I got censored for is in NO way obscene! With the censoring it now makes it look that way. Brilliant! OK, here's the word:
G
E
S
T
A
P
O
S
 

golffriend

Active member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Location
UK
TDI
Golf mk4 variant
I want to share my experience about PD engine cut off after partly warming up (and not starting after), because it has a simple

cure. Sorry for bad english. I am not mechanic, but have some experience.

After long time spent testing fuel lines, connections, after drilling output valve from fuel tank I found air collecting in fuel

lines (inserted clear lines temporarily) when engine is warming up. Air (blow-by gasses) are pushed to fuel near injectors through

bad injector seals and possibly injectors itself. Strange that disconnecting good MAF sensor solves it frequently or I am thinking

so... Possibly only in some circumstances in function of air in fuel quantity, air pressure, engine temperature, how long tried

cranking before. Worth to try if nothing helps, it is faster than 1 minute on starter but with (good) MAF...

When gasses are collected in fuel and fuel with gasses is compressed by tandem pump, nothing bad happens. But when fuel

temperature reaches thermostatic T on fuel filter setpoint and engine temperature needle comes about 1 sector before vertical

position "90 C" (it corresponds real engine temperature higher than 75C - not real 90C) - be carefull! If you let RPM sudden drop

lower 2000, and at that moment T opens, compressed air would expand to tank but before it would be pushing fuel from fuel lines and

filter, so warm engine would die and not start. Needs priming fuel lines.
If you dont let RPM drop, pressure would be maintained, fuel effectively sucked from tank by pump and engine not dies, only short

unstability in T opening moment. So, engine dies only at that temperature!
When you started warm engine, T opens faster (so gasses are not at critical level collected because of shorter time before T

opening) and engine runs fine without T modification. Until it cools to negative temperature (actual only in winter season).
Tip: if problem persist and you can not drill T at the time, please dont push on gas pedal when engine cold - that forces blow-by

gasses to fuel at higher rates! And so with MAF connected (I think). And long cold engine idling helps for air in fuel collecting

(low heat, longer time T closed). Problem more actual in lower temperatures because of longer T closed time ant more advanced (and

longer) fuel (and gasses) injection.

Real simple cure is to drill 1mm hole in thermostatic T in/out ports through, letting to pass blow-by gasses to tank in all

temperatures (through hole, when engine is cool; through open T when engine hot). It is all. No problems after that. Bigger hole

would be bad because of fuel temperature drop in warming up stage. 1mm is sufficient, letting about 1 l fuel in 1 minute through

(if on higher pressure side, tandem output with T closed - tested). That cure I have read, but here are my explanations of process.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And about hard cold starting because of air in fuel (not blow-by at this time): air sucked to fuel lines past the same injector

seals (?) or other weak points - only when fuel in tank cools down to negative temperatures (some negative pressure in tank air?) -

when engine is long time shut off. Hard starting after long trip with near empty tank (in winter)- because of that suction to

tank, when air in tank heats and cools in cycles.
Cure - mounting cut off electric valve in return to tank fuel line. This not passes fuel to tank (when engine shut off only), so

no air in lines after cold night. When ignition turning on, valve must open. Be careful - valve must pass fuel when engine is

running and hot. Fuel temperature must not exceed max limits. Valve must be operational. Good choise is brass valve with emergency

manual open function (from gas equipment).
Possibly- new, not used fuel filter thermostatic T closes (slowly, when engine shut off and cools) - so good that build some

vacuum in tank (cools more quickly than T) stays closed from return fuel line and fuel stays in lines. But old, used T has more

free play inside it and with slow vacuum build up does not close fully (there isn't any tandem pump pressure). So air could be

sucked to fuel lines. That is suggestion, needs testing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My 2000 1.9 TDI PD has no fuel lift pump in tank. Lift pump would be usefull for light cold starting (no need in electric valve in

this case). But trapped air in fuel system stays there all time till engine and fuel heats up to the moment when T opens. Fuel with

air will circulate through fuel filter with or without in tank pump (if blow-by gasses accumulates). Only new tandem pump possibly

could deliver normal fuel flow at the T opening moment (worst scenario), but not in all cases. Air still is there. Small hole in T

could be made from factory.
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Golffriend, interesting stuff. Not sure how much crosses over to the ALH. Your comments on the thermostatic T does have me wondering about it: I've got a new one laying around and may look to install it.

What is, IMO, unusual here (why I started this thread- still not sure why folks felt compelled to rate this thread, and to rate it low:confused:) is that the car always starts instantly, doesn't matter whether warm or cold or how long it has sat. All stumbling like this (and it's pretty bad) almost always comes with hard starting: mostly related to air incursion.

What makes things a bit more difficult is that there's no clear fuel line on this car. Lines look stock. Can only guess that automatics didn't have clear fuel lines? Being able to note whether there's air or not would really help. Might look to add a section of clear line for diagnostic purposes (I have done this on my truck).

I now have a spare new MAF just in case.

I've arranged for getting my hands on the car around the middle of January. Hopefully this holds up this time.
 

Rembrant

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Canada's Ocean Playground
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2013 Golf TDI DSG
(why I started this thread- still not sure why folks felt compelled to rate this thread, and to rate it low:confused:)
I guess I don't pay much attention, but I didn't even realize that you could vote/rate threads at all until just now...lol. If you hover your pointer over the two stars however...you can see that there was only "1 votes"...lol, if it makes any difference.:)

I'm subscribed to see what the final solution is here.

PS: Not sure on the fuel line on the autos, but I'm pretty sure my 03 Jetta wagon (5spd) did have the clear fuel line. My Golf does too of course, but the 2000 Beetle did not have a clear line...I think this is normal for them, but it was the only one I've ever been under the hood of, so I can't say much.

Rem
 

turbovan+tdi

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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
As I mentioned in the other thread, your IQ is too low, that can cause the loping. Happened to a couple friends, the temp dropped and they start starting like crap. Raised the number, cold starts were now perfect.

We just got back from the mountain, -15 or colder deg C, fired up instantly after the glow plugs went out, loped for about 15 secs, then smooth as glass. My IQ is around 5.
 

UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
As I mentioned in the other thread, your IQ is too low, that can cause the loping. Happened to a couple friends, the temp dropped and they start starting like crap. Raised the number, cold starts were now perfect.

We just got back from the mountain, -15 or colder deg C, fired up instantly after the glow plugs went out, loped for about 15 secs, then smooth as glass. My IQ is around 5.
Yeah, I have noted this and will expect to look to adjust. I'm just saying that in nearly all cases of low IQ creating problems it shows up in other areas. And, almost always rough running after start is with a car that also doesn't start briskly. And it's this later point that gets me. Temps haven't been all that cold. When turning the key to start one barely has enough time to let off before the engine has already started. If there's a quicker starting car out there I'd love to see it.

My wife's car struggles to start cold and it runs rough for a bit. I'm familiar with this kind of behavior: IQ is set really high on it (I'm thinking maybe 6-ish); timing is also set max advance. While I don't like this -don't have time to deal with it- I don't find it all that objectionable. The wagon, however, is WAY not right. Anyway... I need to let this rest until I have a chance to actually get my hands on the car.
 

turbovan+tdi

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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Yeah, I have noted this and will expect to look to adjust. I'm just saying that in nearly all cases of low IQ creating problems it shows up in other areas. And, almost always rough running after start is with a car that also doesn't start briskly. And it's this later point that gets me. Temps haven't been all that cold. When turning the key to start one barely has enough time to let off before the engine has already started. If there's a quicker starting car out there I'd love to see it.

My wife's car struggles to start cold and it runs rough for a bit. I'm familiar with this kind of behavior: IQ is set really high on it (I'm thinking maybe 6-ish); timing is also set max advance. While I don't like this -don't have time to deal with it- I don't find it all that objectionable. The wagon, however, is WAY not right. Anyway... I need to let this rest until I have a chance to actually get my hands on the car.
Hopefully its as easy as an IQ tweak, :cool:
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
OK, to update this thread...

Had the car for a bunch of work and managed to get a little time addressing this issue.

The IQ was set around 1.4. For some reason it wasn't set at the default adaptation number: was set to 32755 (default should be 32768). I had not messed with it.

I set the IQ to right around 3.8 via Adaptation (32660).

Still had some stumbling. Off-hand I didn't have enough starts like this to really determine the full effects of the IQ change. I'm pretty sure that it helped though. I then replaced the thermo-T and the stumbling seems to be of a lot less duration; but, I wasn't able to have enough cold starts to really say for certain the effectiveness of these changes.

As it is the car is still stumbling a bit after a cold start. If you go to drive right away there's surging.

Have not ruled out:

- Leaking injectors (roughly 155k miles on these stockers- did not Diesel Purge with these installed that I can recall, so this is a possible action, though not sure if it would affect this condition)

- Air in fuel lines (can't see; action would be to replace lines so I have a clear line)

- IP leaks (it's dry, but could be sucking some air)

I'm less inclined to think that this could be a fuel sender/pick-up issue as I have not experienced any sense that there's a fuel delivery issue: car redlines with ease- runs perfectly other than this initial stumble.
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I'm still dogging this issue... (keep in mind that I have very limited access to this vehicle)

A garage up North adjusted the timing (knocked it down- not sure what they set it to- next opportunity I'll throw VCDS on it and see) and bumped up the IQ (by all accounts they hammer-modded it, which was needed). They claimed they improved it, but I couldn't tell any difference.

Post garage work (got my hands on it to replace a defective new shock) I found, sadly, that the cold start issue was still there.

Continuing with this "hobby," I ran across this:

http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/thread.jspa?threadID=44558

The relevant part is this:
I've search all over the internet. I did find one other fella who was having this same rough idle at cold start problem. He had a lot of work done, and it was finally determined that the problem was a severly worn upper piston compression ring on one cyclinder. At cold start this caused a loss of compresion in that one cyclinder which resulted in a skip. This went away as the engine warmed up and normal compression was re-established.
I'd tested compression on this engine, warm, and it came out great. After reading the above I'm wondering whether it would be worthwhile to do a compression test with the engine cold.

The thing that continues to confound me is that with problems others have there's always some other issue associated with the rough idle, mostly hard starting. Given that this engine fires off instantly tells me there's likely no air leak happening (or am I premature in ruling this out?) and that the compression should be good (which would tent to rule out the above gleaned info).
 
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Genesis

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'03 Jetta Wagon
If it's got a cylinder that is getting fuel but not firing when cold you'll get a hell of a lot of white smoke out the tailpipe until that cylinder comes online.

An air bubble that winds up in ONE hole will result in a rough idle for a few seconds, but only briefly. I usually only bleed one injector when I've had the lines off for some reason and within a few seconds after the engine lights it smooths right out as the air is expelled from the other ones.
 

UhOh

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Yeah, in this case it's just that the engine has no hesitation whatsoever about starting. A bad cylinder will cause, at the very least, a bit of cranking. This car doesn't have to crank at all, it's like as soon as the starter hits it's running. Kind of two things that I'm wanting to figure out: 1) What's causing the stumbling; 2) What's the ticket to getting all my cars to start this instantly!

Next time I have access to it (requires it sitting for many hours) I'll try to capture a video.
 

edjet

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Dec 29, 2004
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GA
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2006 Jetta TDi,
I had a friend at work that had an ALH with the same issue. He sold the car to a VW mechanic who found a lifter that was cracked on the inside around the valve mating pocket. The lifter would loose its oil prime when static and the engine would go through a short period of rough running until it built up its pressure enough to run smoothly.
 

UhOh

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edjet, that's interesting! I wonder, though, how long it would take for a lifter to bleed down. Seems like it might not take that long: in the case of the daughter's car it takes quite a while of it sitting before it exhibits this issue: seems that the engine is always good and cold before it does this.
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I just recalled that I'd replaced a section of the return fuel line between the #3 and #4 injectors due to fuel leaking.

For some reason I wanted to take a quick peek under the hood before she drove off and that's when I saw that there was a significant fuel leak happening. I cut and installed a new piece but did not have any time to observe if it made any difference.

This was my bad in that I'd swapped out the injectors last summer and apparently cut that line a bit short. I do not recall there being any leaking prior to me spotting this recently. And interesting is that a shop up North has had their eyes on this car a couple of times and they didn't catch this (and they were aware of the cold start issue).

I don't think that I can get a reliable description from the daughter on how things are going. I hope to see the car in a couple of weeks.

So... could bad return lines do something like this?

Could it be that the IP really is sucking in air, that the injectors have a good enough supply of fuel for the engine to fire immediately but then air come in from the IP and it starts chugging? I'm still thinking that this is a bit temperature related though. NOTE: car has solid fuel lines- I cannot see if there are any bubbles- I REALLY need to do something about this (why Oh why were any of these engines rolled out without clear lines?).
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
Another item for thought...

I installed injectors from a manual transmission car. I had known that the nozzles were different sizes between the autos and the manuals, but I wasn't aware that the autos' injectors operate at a higher pressure. Could this fact be in play here?

I just cannot recall how the car was starting before I swapped the injectors. I'm wanting to say that there was an issue and that I was hoping that the swap might help out: I have more exposure to the injectors that I swapped in because they came out of the wife's Golf: I figured they were good whereas I couldn't really speak to the condition the originals from the wagon.

From the TDI FACT page this is what got me thinking on this:
One of the improvements made on the A4 engines compared to previous models involved the increased fuel injection pressure from the injection pump with optimization of the fuel injectors. Manual transmission A4 TDI's have 800 bar (11,760 PSI) pump side pressure with 1100 bar (16,170 PSI) injection nozzle pressure. Automatic transmission A4 engines have 950 bar (13,965 PSI) pump side pressure with 1350 bar (19,845 PSI) injection nozzle pressure. To achieve this increase in pump and injection nozzle output pressures in the automatic transmission engines, the single injection pump plunger on the BOSCH pump was changed from 10mm to 11mm. This was required for emission purposes allowing the automatic version to inject the required quantity in the very limited time available at higher pressure, with a resulting 20% reduction in particulate emissions.

Pete, you out there?
 

UhOh

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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
After pursuing the injector issue it's looking like this isn't the source of the problem, though it's possible that the added fueling could be amplifying it.

Kind of leaves one of three possibilities:

1) Weak lifters;
2) Bad compression ring;
3) IP leaking (air incursion).

#3 seems like a "duh," but the car never struggles to start. From all I've ever heard this kind of issue is going to cause hard starting. But, I'm curious, can it be that an IP could be just taking in a little bit of air and that the injectors, following shutdown, are still maintaining enough fuel (right at the front of the lines) such that the engine gleefully kicks right off, but then its next gulp contains a slug of air? This all clears up within a minute or so. Because this car doesn't have a clear fuel line on it it makes this really hard to diagnose. I would really like to get one on this thing: if this was my car, readily available, it would already be done!

#2 is plausible, but I'm wondering how this could be proved/disproved. Only way that I think possible would be with a cold compression test? Any chance I could have a stuck compression ring? I think I've only heard of stuck oil rings. And I'd already done a warm compression test and it produced very good numbers.

#1 seems like a perfect match as logic goes. This, and #2, however, seem to be pretty rare. Other than edjet's mention of it I see no other instances.
 

Genesis

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Sevier County TN
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'03 Jetta Wagon
For #1, do the lifters rattle a bit when cold? A lot when cold? When they stop does that coincide with the idle smoothing out?

My '03 rattles for a few seconds on a cold start... but no problems with the idle.
 

UhOh

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A HUGE problem for me is that I've only ever seen this car a handful of times, and exposure to the cold starting issue perhaps twice. I can't say for certain whether there's anything out of the usual as far as rattling goes; it's hard to tell because one gets really distracted by the bucking. I'm inclined to say that I don't really hear anything out of the ordinary.

This is just one of those things that's made tough due to it being hard to get many testing cycles on, seeing as the car needs to be cold.

I really appreciate all the input here. When I'm able to see the car next and I'm able to get access to it when it's cold I'm going to take a video. I doubt that I'll be able to put any wrenches on it (really, we're talking Mothers Day!): the car's 01m has signaled that it's heck-bent on starting on a death march- if I act on it now (well, I'm probably going to have someone up North act on it) then it might be saved for a few more kms/miles, long enough for me to sort out this cold start issue.
 
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stikshift

Well-known member
Joined
May 8, 2016
Location
New York
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'03 Golf ALH
I'm having an extremely similar issue. The car starts right up every time, then idles rough until it's warm with some smoke. Hope you can figure out what's going on!
 

UhOh

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Unfortunately I've had no further delvings.:(
 

turbovan+tdi

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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
I extended the GP time on my wife's and it solved her cold start. Mark, how is it now, I added aprox 6 more secs to it.
 

UhOh

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Simon, I haven't heard a word (was hoping to hear a bit from you). Does the GP time govern only the "wait to start" time, or does it [also] extend the after-glow? And this now brings up yet another question: could it be that the after-glow (post start) glow time is messed up?

Can't help but think that a correct battery could help: really irks me that a battery place couldn't install the CORRECT battery!

This is just a weird issue in that issues almost always impact initial start. I'd figure that everyone would like a car that starts this easily.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Simon, I haven't heard a word (was hoping to hear a bit from you). Does the GP time govern only the "wait to start" time, or does it [also] extend the after-glow? And this now brings up yet another question: could it be that the after-glow (post start) glow time is messed up?

Can't help but think that a correct battery could help: really irks me that a battery place couldn't install the CORRECT battery!

This is just a weird issue in that issues almost always impact initial start. I'd figure that everyone would like a car that starts this easily.
Not sure about after burn but they stay on longer so they get really hot, which is better for cold starts.

I know, not a fan of that battery company. Hopefully they sorted it out.

I'll email you later, just doing paperwork, :mad:
 

UhOh

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I managed to find out the answer to my question about GP after-glow. All the information one would want to slurp up can be had here;

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=123304

In a nutshell: after-glow is roughly 2x the time of pre-glow. Adapting GP settings results in shifting the temperature off-sets rather than altering time: if one increases the temperature offset then GP glow will occur at warmer temperatures; at lower temps they'll glow longer.

Seeing as when the engine warms up (doesn't take long to get to a point where it's smooth) one could expect that shifting the GP value upwards would result in a longer duration of after-glow, which would help with early, cold combustion.

Better vetting of GPs is probably also something to consider. That thread notes that even with good resistance values GPs may not glow as hot as they are supposed to.
 

indysoto

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Location
Eugene, OR
compression test? I bet she runs a crap load of 100% biodiesel thru it to keep you outside working on the car ;)
 
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